1
00:00:22,550 --> 00:00:09,080
welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

2
00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:25,230
hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

3
00:00:32,970 --> 00:00:29,800
episode number 374 the 22nd of November

4
00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:32,980
2015 Richard Saunders here with you from

5
00:00:40,860 --> 00:00:36,760
Sydney Australia a nice overcast cool

6
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:40,870
mild Sydney Australia over the last few

7
00:00:46,590 --> 00:00:42,730
days there's been a heatwave so this is

8
00:00:48,030 --> 00:00:46,600
a nice reprieve a nice rest coming up on

9
00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:48,040
this week's show we're going to kick off

10
00:00:51,119 --> 00:00:49,330
with an interview with honour my

11
00:00:53,190 --> 00:00:51,129
favorite skeptics from around the world

12
00:00:56,610 --> 00:00:53,200
Michael Marshall from the good thinking

13
00:01:00,360 --> 00:00:56,620
society in the UK Marsh as he's known

14
00:01:02,490 --> 00:01:00,370
now Marsh appeared recently on the BBC

15
00:01:05,090 --> 00:01:02,500
on their morning programme watched by

16
00:01:09,330 --> 00:01:05,100
millions of people to put yet another

17
00:01:12,810 --> 00:01:09,340
nail in the coffin of that wacky crazy

18
00:01:17,130 --> 00:01:12,820
bizarre ridiculous where's my thesaurus

19
00:01:19,580 --> 00:01:17,140
mmm modality of homeopathy Marsh is

20
00:01:22,430 --> 00:01:19,590
going to tell us about that and the

21
00:01:25,469 --> 00:01:22,440
government blacklist when it comes to a

22
00:01:27,630 --> 00:01:25,479
medication in the UK what's going on

23
00:01:29,850 --> 00:01:27,640
there Michael Marshall from the good

24
00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:29,860
thinking society to kick off this week's

25
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:32,110
episode of the skeptic zone following

26
00:01:36,930 --> 00:01:34,410
that it's evidence please with Joe

27
00:01:41,609 --> 00:01:36,940
alabasta Joe is going to be looking at

28
00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:41,619
the recent story of a mother so so moved

29
00:01:45,749 --> 00:01:43,690
and concerned by the plight of her child

30
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:45,759
with whooping cough she actually put up

31
00:01:51,449 --> 00:01:47,770
a video online of her child with

32
00:01:55,380 --> 00:01:51,459
whooping cough to warn other parents of

33
00:01:57,330 --> 00:01:55,390
how awful this disease is she got a

34
00:01:59,730 --> 00:01:57,340
strong reaction lots of positive

35
00:02:01,969 --> 00:01:59,740
feedback of course other parents saying

36
00:02:05,999 --> 00:02:01,979
well done and this is an important thing

37
00:02:08,609 --> 00:02:06,009
but my goodness me the reaction she got

38
00:02:10,949 --> 00:02:08,619
from those anti-vaccination lunatics out

39
00:02:15,110 --> 00:02:10,959
there those people who are very keen to

40
00:02:17,850 --> 00:02:15,120
undermine our scientific advancements

41
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:17,860
what's that expression the road to hell

42
00:02:21,930 --> 00:02:20,290
is paved with good intentions most of

43
00:02:23,070 --> 00:02:21,940
them really think they're doing the

44
00:02:26,070 --> 00:02:23,080
right thing they think they're on a

45
00:02:28,770 --> 00:02:26,080
crusade they think they're saving us all

46
00:02:30,340 --> 00:02:28,780
from the evil conspiracy of one world

47
00:02:34,750 --> 00:02:30,350
government or

48
00:02:37,630 --> 00:02:34,760
the big farmer monopolies or whatever it

49
00:02:39,910 --> 00:02:37,640
is I hope they think they're doing the

50
00:02:42,730 --> 00:02:39,920
right thing but of course this poor

51
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:42,740
mother has been on the bad end of awful

52
00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:46,250
comments awful feedback we're going to

53
00:02:49,830 --> 00:02:47,930
hear a report from Joe all about this

54
00:02:52,210 --> 00:02:49,840
we're going to hear the video to this

55
00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:52,220
this poor little baby who has whooping

56
00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:55,250
cough and then we'll play a little clip

57
00:03:00,610 --> 00:02:58,010
from recent ABC television program the

58
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:00,620
drum where they're discussing this this

59
00:03:04,630 --> 00:03:02,810
topic following that it's a weakened

60
00:03:08,620 --> 00:03:04,640
science from the Royal Institution of

61
00:03:10,510 --> 00:03:08,630
Australia w WR I a you sob you an

62
00:03:12,850 --> 00:03:10,520
institution that certainly defends

63
00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:12,860
science and reason then to round off the

64
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:15,530
show it's Maynard spooky action yet

65
00:03:19,060 --> 00:03:16,970
another interview from the recent

66
00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:19,070
Australian skeptics national convention

67
00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:21,170
this week Maynard's going to be speaking

68
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:24,650
to a former skeptic zone reporter a vice

69
00:03:30,610 --> 00:03:27,170
president of Australian skeptics Joanne

70
00:03:33,250 --> 00:03:30,620
been amoo Chow and Benham ooh she's a

71
00:03:36,250 --> 00:03:33,260
clinical nurse consultant but she also

72
00:03:39,790 --> 00:03:36,260
coordinates clinical trials in radiation

73
00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:39,800
oncology wow that's a mouthful she's

74
00:03:45,850 --> 00:03:43,390
going to be discussing prostate cancer

75
00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:45,860
what an interesting interview it is I

76
00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:47,870
encourage you all to listen especially

77
00:03:54,850 --> 00:03:52,850
if your man around my age an interesting

78
00:03:56,860 --> 00:03:54,860
interview at jo-ann been amoo a defender

79
00:04:00,100 --> 00:03:56,870
of science of course a big happy

80
00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:00,110
birthday to dr. Reggie dr. Rachel Dunlop

81
00:04:05,230 --> 00:04:02,110
known to millions of dr. HC of course

82
00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:05,240
who just celebrated her birthday well

83
00:04:12,030 --> 00:04:07,370
done Reggie and now it's time for me to

84
00:04:15,580 --> 00:04:12,040
run downstairs and have some of the devo

85
00:04:19,270 --> 00:04:15,590
delicious indescribable peanut butter

86
00:04:21,190 --> 00:04:19,280
slice Jo alabaster and her family made

87
00:04:24,940 --> 00:04:21,200
for me we had a little celebration on

88
00:04:27,490 --> 00:04:24,950
door get together just today I got a big

89
00:04:29,580 --> 00:04:27,500
birthday coming up in there in the very

90
00:04:32,740 --> 00:04:29,590
near future and it was a little quiet

91
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:32,750
chance to celebrate that and my goodness

92
00:04:38,940 --> 00:04:35,810
me Joe alabaster's peanut butter slicer

93
00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:38,950
oh boy I'm still recovering mmm-hmm

94
00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:41,110
but there's still room for a one slice

95
00:05:05,130 --> 00:04:43,870
mall i'm doing that and i hope you enjoy

96
00:05:10,990 --> 00:05:07,840
and joining me now on the line from

97
00:05:12,940 --> 00:05:11,000
Liverpool as he does every so often not

98
00:05:14,740 --> 00:05:12,950
often enough of course it's Michael

99
00:05:17,020 --> 00:05:14,750
Marshall from the good thinking society

100
00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:17,030
hello Michael hello Richard nice to

101
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:18,310
speak to you again always a pleasure

102
00:05:23,530 --> 00:05:21,890
thank you and as our Sydney listeners

103
00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:23,540
might know there's been a heatwave

104
00:05:26,860 --> 00:05:25,490
recently in Sydney and right now we're

105
00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:26,870
on the tail end of it so I don't care

106
00:05:31,050 --> 00:05:28,430
what sort of whether you're having a

107
00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:31,060
Liverpool I would swap with you gladly

108
00:05:34,630 --> 00:05:33,080
well I don't think we'll ever have the

109
00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:34,640
kind of heat that you guys have in

110
00:05:38,050 --> 00:05:36,710
Australia it's it's the warmest November

111
00:05:40,270 --> 00:05:38,060
ever I think here in Liverpool it's

112
00:05:41,620 --> 00:05:40,280
sunny outside which is a nice but it's

113
00:05:44,230 --> 00:05:41,630
also disconcerting about the long-term

114
00:05:45,490 --> 00:05:44,240
future of the planet but yeah it's not

115
00:05:48,550 --> 00:05:45,500
quite the heat that you guys are having

116
00:05:50,590 --> 00:05:48,560
air well let's put the weather aside for

117
00:05:52,660 --> 00:05:50,600
the moment marsh and let's talk about

118
00:05:55,420 --> 00:05:52,670
more interesting in probably more

119
00:05:57,430 --> 00:05:55,430
important things now news is filtered

120
00:05:59,200 --> 00:05:57,440
through to us here in Australia about

121
00:06:01,870 --> 00:05:59,210
something called a black list which I'll

122
00:06:03,580 --> 00:06:01,880
ask you to expand upon in a minute but

123
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:03,590
also you've been out and about you've

124
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:06,650
been appearing on national TV can you

125
00:06:10,420 --> 00:06:08,210
put all that together for our listeners

126
00:06:11,710 --> 00:06:10,430
yeah absolutely so this is this isn't as

127
00:06:13,030 --> 00:06:11,720
quite exciting for a sweetie this is

128
00:06:14,470 --> 00:06:13,040
well one of the projects we've been

129
00:06:16,630 --> 00:06:14,480
working on with good thinking fur I

130
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:16,640
think it's been about a year I think one

131
00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:17,930
of the previous times I was on the show

132
00:06:20,620 --> 00:06:19,370
I think I mentioned that one of the

133
00:06:22,810 --> 00:06:20,630
things we were really looking at we had

134
00:06:24,790 --> 00:06:22,820
a legal team and we were poring over all

135
00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:24,800
the different ways that we could could

136
00:06:28,090 --> 00:06:26,570
bring legal challenges against the NHS

137
00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:28,100
provision of homeopathy so spending

138
00:06:31,330 --> 00:06:29,930
actually government money on our health

139
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:31,340
service on something we know it doesn't

140
00:06:35,590 --> 00:06:34,250
work and in 2010 the NHS even said we

141
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:35,600
know this doesn't work they've still

142
00:06:39,550 --> 00:06:37,490
been spending 5 million pounds a year on

143
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:39,560
it so it's we feel that a bit out of

144
00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:40,730
order and we were just looking at lots

145
00:06:43,390 --> 00:06:41,870
of different routes that we could try

146
00:06:44,950 --> 00:06:43,400
and challenge this and what are the ones

147
00:06:46,330 --> 00:06:44,960
we came across is actually just this one

148
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:46,340
has hit the news it's it's a very

149
00:06:51,220 --> 00:06:47,810
technical one but it could be really

150
00:06:53,409 --> 00:06:51,230
significant so the NHS has a list called

151
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:53,419
a blacklist schedule one of the drugs

152
00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:55,250
regulations and on this list you put

153
00:06:59,860 --> 00:06:57,410
anything that you don't want a GP to

154
00:07:01,719 --> 00:06:59,870
prescribe so it might be this drug over

155
00:07:03,969 --> 00:07:01,729
here by a pharmaceutically that's been

156
00:07:06,290 --> 00:07:03,979
proven not to be effective at all or it

157
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:06,300
might be a drug that is expend

158
00:07:09,350 --> 00:07:07,770
but there is a cheaper one available

159
00:07:11,270 --> 00:07:09,360
elsewhere that's better you know it's

160
00:07:12,740 --> 00:07:11,280
when it goes off patent you don't pay if

161
00:07:14,029 --> 00:07:12,750
the expensive drug just use the cheap

162
00:07:15,830 --> 00:07:14,039
drug and save a lot of money so maybe

163
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:15,840
you put the expensive one on this black

164
00:07:18,350 --> 00:07:17,370
list and there's things like that and

165
00:07:21,110 --> 00:07:18,360
there's things like if you can buy it

166
00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:21,120
very easily in supermarkets or

167
00:07:24,290 --> 00:07:22,440
pharmacies and it's not going hard to

168
00:07:25,490 --> 00:07:24,300
find this very cheap then if you go on

169
00:07:28,249 --> 00:07:25,500
the black list so you can't get

170
00:07:30,529 --> 00:07:28,259
ibuprofen or paracetamol or something

171
00:07:32,689 --> 00:07:30,539
like that on the NHS because why bother

172
00:07:34,189 --> 00:07:32,699
getting the whole health service to go

173
00:07:35,899 --> 00:07:34,199
through the bureaucracy and the admin of

174
00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:35,909
getting getting you a prescription which

175
00:07:39,619 --> 00:07:38,370
you pay a pound for which for something

176
00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:39,629
that you can go into a supermarket and

177
00:07:43,580 --> 00:07:41,310
buy for 20 pence you know so there's

178
00:07:44,930 --> 00:07:43,590
lots of different reasons and this list

179
00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:44,940
got three thousand different things on

180
00:07:47,510 --> 00:07:46,289
it some of the things are like say they

181
00:07:49,399 --> 00:07:47,520
actually work whether it's not worth

182
00:07:51,020 --> 00:07:49,409
they're not cost effective so we have a

183
00:07:53,540 --> 00:07:51,030
look at the reasons why stuff gets added

184
00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:53,550
to this list and won't you know if it

185
00:07:57,290 --> 00:07:55,050
doesn't work it should go on the list

186
00:07:59,540 --> 00:07:57,300
well we know homeopathy doesn't work the

187
00:08:02,089 --> 00:07:59,550
government stated this for five years so

188
00:08:03,260 --> 00:08:02,099
surely it only takes one reason to go on

189
00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:03,270
the list so that should be reason enough

190
00:08:07,129 --> 00:08:05,490
but we've got the next reason now is it

191
00:08:09,409 --> 00:08:07,139
is there something available that's

192
00:08:10,879 --> 00:08:09,419
better but cheaper well everything is

193
00:08:13,969 --> 00:08:10,889
better than it because it doesn't work

194
00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:13,979
so it takes that box you know they were

195
00:08:18,110 --> 00:08:16,110
saying it even if people really wanted

196
00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:18,120
their homeopathy if it was problem this

197
00:08:22,249 --> 00:08:20,310
list and GPS couldn't prescribe it would

198
00:08:24,170 --> 00:08:22,259
this stop anybody getting as anybody's

199
00:08:25,999 --> 00:08:24,180
access to homeopathy well no because you

200
00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:26,009
can go into your pharmacies you can go

201
00:08:28,279 --> 00:08:27,120
into your boots and your whole new

202
00:08:31,459 --> 00:08:28,289
Barrett and your health stores and

203
00:08:32,569 --> 00:08:31,469
homeopathy costs about a fiver well if

204
00:08:33,949 --> 00:08:32,579
you're on the NHS you could get a

205
00:08:35,810 --> 00:08:33,959
prescription it costs about seven or

206
00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:35,820
eight pounds so it's actually cheaper do

207
00:08:38,990 --> 00:08:37,529
not get it on prescription so we kind of

208
00:08:40,670 --> 00:08:39,000
made this case the government and said

209
00:08:41,930 --> 00:08:40,680
you've got this black list you've got it

210
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:41,940
because you've got it you've got a duty

211
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:44,010
under the European laws to maintain this

212
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:46,050
list we think homeopathy has to be on it

213
00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:47,970
and this is the arguably been making to

214
00:08:51,949 --> 00:08:50,310
them for since the start of 2015 and

215
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:51,959
initially they said well we're not going

216
00:08:54,740 --> 00:08:53,490
to add anything to the list we've got no

217
00:08:56,569 --> 00:08:54,750
plans to change the list we haven't

218
00:08:58,490 --> 00:08:56,579
changed it for a long time we're just

219
00:09:00,920 --> 00:08:58,500
not going to look at it and we said yeah

220
00:09:02,780 --> 00:09:00,930
but legally you have to and you can't

221
00:09:04,759 --> 00:09:02,790
just decide arbitrarily the random point

222
00:09:06,650 --> 00:09:04,769
to stop doing your job on this list

223
00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:06,660
because if you imagine that you make one

224
00:09:09,139 --> 00:09:07,649
of the products that's on the list

225
00:09:10,550 --> 00:09:09,149
you're gonna be pretty annoyed that

226
00:09:12,350 --> 00:09:10,560
you're on the list and this other

227
00:09:13,810 --> 00:09:12,360
product that's newer isn't on the list

228
00:09:15,949 --> 00:09:13,820
so it's going to be sort of like

229
00:09:17,780 --> 00:09:15,959
discriminating against your worthless

230
00:09:19,250 --> 00:09:17,790
product in the win and we may at this

231
00:09:20,060 --> 00:09:19,260
point in them said I mean if that's your

232
00:09:21,710 --> 00:09:20,070
policy then

233
00:09:23,810 --> 00:09:21,720
you might find that everyone on that

234
00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:23,820
list has a right to get in touch with a

235
00:09:28,070 --> 00:09:25,290
fairly angry letter from their lawyers

236
00:09:29,930 --> 00:09:28,080
and to make this point back and the

237
00:09:31,580 --> 00:09:29,940
great news is that a couple of weeks ago

238
00:09:35,090 --> 00:09:31,590
we have finally from the department

239
00:09:36,290 --> 00:09:35,100
health and they're in early 2016 they're

240
00:09:38,420 --> 00:09:36,300
gonna they're appointed they've

241
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:38,430
appointed a minister to look at a proper

242
00:09:41,930 --> 00:09:40,170
consultation on whether homeopathy

243
00:09:44,630 --> 00:09:41,940
should go on this list we're going to

244
00:09:46,430 --> 00:09:44,640
part that consultation the people we

245
00:09:48,410 --> 00:09:46,440
know who are experts in the field people

246
00:09:49,580 --> 00:09:48,420
at Ed's ardern stand the UK's chief

247
00:09:51,410 --> 00:09:49,590
medical officer those are the people

248
00:09:53,060 --> 00:09:51,420
that will be looking to get involved and

249
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:53,070
share their expert opinion on this and I

250
00:09:56,870 --> 00:09:54,450
think we've got a really good shot at

251
00:09:59,390 --> 00:09:56,880
getting homeopathy banned in GP

252
00:10:00,830 --> 00:09:59,400
surgeries and as I say it's not going to

253
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:00,840
stop your average consumer if they

254
00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:02,730
really feel they need their sugar pills

255
00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:04,170
aren't going to do anything they can

256
00:10:08,810 --> 00:10:06,510
walk into a pharmacy they can walk into

257
00:10:10,010 --> 00:10:08,820
a supermarket they can look online and

258
00:10:11,570 --> 00:10:10,020
get there for me off of thee but it's

259
00:10:13,610 --> 00:10:11,580
it's the fact that it's going to stop it

260
00:10:16,310 --> 00:10:13,620
being prescribed on the NHS and that is

261
00:10:17,870 --> 00:10:16,320
a huge huge symbolic victory as well as

262
00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:17,880
a real victory it'll save a couple

263
00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:19,110
hundred thousand pounds ago but the

264
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:21,090
symbolism of it is so important that

265
00:10:25,010 --> 00:10:22,610
we're no longer endorsing this

266
00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:25,020
absolutely it would send a powerful

267
00:10:30,910 --> 00:10:27,930
message around the world and I can I can

268
00:10:34,010 --> 00:10:30,920
almost hear the homeopaths screeching

269
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:34,020
yeah well if you if you look at any of

270
00:10:37,370 --> 00:10:35,610
the comments on any of the news coverage

271
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:37,380
you live you have definitely heard or

272
00:10:41,180 --> 00:10:39,330
the homeopath sir with a few things to

273
00:10:43,370 --> 00:10:41,190
say it because you say I was on TV about

274
00:10:46,070 --> 00:10:43,380
this on breakfast news debating with her

275
00:10:47,540 --> 00:10:46,080
with a homeopath are there and Simon was

276
00:10:50,090 --> 00:10:47,550
on Simon seeing head of the good

277
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:50,100
thinking society he was on the TV and

278
00:10:53,900 --> 00:10:52,050
the radio and lots of different radio

279
00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:53,910
and we made it into every national

280
00:10:57,170 --> 00:10:55,680
newspaper as well so he was it was

281
00:10:58,700 --> 00:10:57,180
really big news when you couldn't have

282
00:11:00,140 --> 00:10:58,710
missed it really if you were sort of

283
00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:00,150
paying attention to the news at all that

284
00:11:03,770 --> 00:11:01,710
day and the great thing about that is

285
00:11:05,770 --> 00:11:03,780
it's because everywhere give us that

286
00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:05,780
coverage because everywhere give us very

287
00:11:09,500 --> 00:11:07,590
positive coverage about what we were

288
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:09,510
trying to do it puts pressure on the

289
00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:11,040
government to do this right they can't

290
00:11:15,410 --> 00:11:13,710
just bow down to any lobbying from

291
00:11:16,820 --> 00:11:15,420
homeopaths without following the letter

292
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:16,830
of the law and we think we've got a good

293
00:11:20,180 --> 00:11:18,210
handle on the law on this one so we

294
00:11:22,430 --> 00:11:20,190
think is a real chance and this will

295
00:11:25,130 --> 00:11:22,440
it'll stop gp's prescribing it which is

296
00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:25,140
one element of the funding the other way

297
00:11:28,250 --> 00:11:27,120
that the homeopathic gets funded it on

298
00:11:30,290 --> 00:11:28,260
the NHS in this country is through

299
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:30,300
homeopathic hospitals which we still

300
00:11:33,860 --> 00:11:32,730
have one or two of we have five they

301
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:33,870
start they're closed down

302
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:36,330
so in all of the five million pounds

303
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:38,250
that we spend on homeopathy in the UK it

304
00:11:42,710 --> 00:11:40,650
covers about 110,000 pounds which isn't

305
00:11:45,050 --> 00:11:42,720
a huge amount but at the same time our

306
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:45,060
other work is knocking on the doors of

307
00:11:48,620 --> 00:11:47,040
those hospitals and challenging the

308
00:11:50,180 --> 00:11:48,630
funding there so what we do it is with

309
00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:50,190
challenging every little bit of this and

310
00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:52,110
this just shows it's another step on the

311
00:11:56,329 --> 00:11:54,450
on the way towards the NHS becoming

312
00:11:58,519 --> 00:11:56,339
homeopathy free and actually being able

313
00:11:59,840 --> 00:11:58,529
to solve yeah but its head up into their

314
00:12:02,930 --> 00:11:59,850
priority and say we're no longer

315
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:02,940
attached to this complete quackery it's

316
00:12:06,650 --> 00:12:05,010
going to happen I mean it is one thing

317
00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:06,660
I've learned over the years of being in

318
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:10,140
the skeptical game is um things happen

319
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:12,450
at their own pace and sometimes it can

320
00:12:17,810 --> 00:12:14,850
be very slow and can be bewildering I

321
00:12:20,660 --> 00:12:17,820
mean if we take homeopathy as an example

322
00:12:22,670 --> 00:12:20,670
it so clearly doesn't work and it

323
00:12:25,519 --> 00:12:22,680
clearly cannot work if the laws of

324
00:12:28,340 --> 00:12:25,529
physics hold true you think that it

325
00:12:31,250 --> 00:12:28,350
would be a quick death but it's quite

326
00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:31,260
staggering how it it hangs on and there

327
00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:33,350
seems to be some sort of lethargy

328
00:12:39,740 --> 00:12:37,110
officialdom to put the nail in the

329
00:12:41,449 --> 00:12:39,750
coffin yeah I think that's right and in

330
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:41,459
a way I can sort of see why I mean the

331
00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:43,410
majority of the public don't really know

332
00:12:46,610 --> 00:12:44,910
what homeopathy is most of the time

333
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:46,620
occasion it will sort of come into view

334
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:48,000
when there's a big story in the papers

335
00:12:51,740 --> 00:12:50,130
or you know when a lot of random

336
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:51,750
skeptics decide to take homeopathic

337
00:12:54,530 --> 00:12:53,370
overdoses on the streets and it kind of

338
00:12:56,780 --> 00:12:54,540
pushes the conversation into the

339
00:12:58,250 --> 00:12:56,790
narrative and into the landscape a

340
00:12:59,990 --> 00:12:58,260
little bit but other than that your

341
00:13:01,610 --> 00:13:00,000
average person just thinks well this is

342
00:13:04,370 --> 00:13:01,620
herb or medicine it's a natural medicine

343
00:13:06,140 --> 00:13:04,380
I live I might not try it but maybe it's

344
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:06,150
maybe other people should have access to

345
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:07,920
it and maybe that's not a bad thing and

346
00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:09,839
those sound like persuasive argument so

347
00:13:13,130 --> 00:13:10,950
I can imagine that there are politicians

348
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:13,140
who think if I was to make a stand on

349
00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:15,450
homeopathy how many people's vote to my

350
00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:16,620
wedding and how many people's votes am I

351
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,240
losing and this is the other thing for

352
00:13:22,579 --> 00:13:21,360
us is that when we when we were campaign

353
00:13:24,019 --> 00:13:22,589
about homeopathy when I was just doing

354
00:13:25,910 --> 00:13:24,029
this in my spare time and it is a

355
00:13:27,890 --> 00:13:25,920
volunteer and you know how you if time

356
00:13:29,449 --> 00:13:27,900
can get quite limited we did the 10 23

357
00:13:31,310 --> 00:13:29,459
campaign and we had a little bit of

358
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:31,320
local success on the NHS getting rid of

359
00:13:36,290 --> 00:13:34,320
it in the world just near Liverpool but

360
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:36,300
because we weren't we didn't have the

361
00:13:40,490 --> 00:13:38,250
time and the expertise to follow that

362
00:13:42,770 --> 00:13:40,500
conversation we missed when the

363
00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:42,780
homeopaths lobbied for that decision to

364
00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:44,880
be undone and because it was just the

365
00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:46,260
homeopath lobbying and there was no

366
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:47,550
voice on our side

367
00:13:51,050 --> 00:13:49,290
they were successful and I think this is

368
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:51,060
a big part of it is that often when

369
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:52,800
these things these consultations come up

370
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:54,480
all these decisions are there to

371
00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:56,850
potentially be made skeptics might not

372
00:14:00,380 --> 00:13:58,560
see it or when they do see it we might

373
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:00,390
kind of go Oh brilliant the NHS is going

374
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:02,490
to get rid of homeopathy fantastic yeah

375
00:14:05,690 --> 00:14:04,560
but actually what we need to see is the

376
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:05,700
NHS looks like they're going to get rid

377
00:14:08,750 --> 00:14:07,290
of homeopathy I need to send them a

378
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:08,760
letter of support because they're going

379
00:14:12,530 --> 00:14:10,170
to get a thousand letters from people

380
00:14:14,540 --> 00:14:12,540
who want to get who wanted to stay so

381
00:14:15,980 --> 00:14:14,550
they need to hear our voice in this in

382
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:15,990
this conversation and that's why yes

383
00:14:19,490 --> 00:14:18,000
we're trying to be a lobbyist that's why

384
00:14:21,710 --> 00:14:19,500
we're trying to put together a campaign

385
00:14:23,389 --> 00:14:21,720
or a project of good thinking to

386
00:14:26,540 --> 00:14:23,399
represent the skeptical voice and make

387
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:26,550
sure it's a balanced view point but the

388
00:14:29,449 --> 00:14:27,930
the politicians here they don't just

389
00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:29,459
hear from home your pats and people who

390
00:14:33,769 --> 00:14:31,110
use homeopathy they're also hearing from

391
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:33,779
rationalist to say that five million

392
00:14:37,579 --> 00:14:35,519
pounds can go to a lot of good causes

393
00:14:39,370 --> 00:14:37,589
can do a lot of good on the NHS if it's

394
00:14:42,110 --> 00:14:39,380
not going on stuff we nor doesn't work

395
00:14:44,540 --> 00:14:42,120
well of course they also have the

396
00:14:46,340 --> 00:14:44,550
situation and the same is true here that

397
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:46,350
we have to be vigilant because the other

398
00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:49,050
side are eager and keen and they have

399
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:51,510
many supporters waiting by their

400
00:14:55,639 --> 00:14:53,279
computers to send letters or to take

401
00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:55,649
action of the drop of the hat so that's

402
00:15:00,340 --> 00:14:57,540
of course that's something we have to

403
00:15:02,810 --> 00:15:00,350
bear in mind not only with homeopathy

404
00:15:04,460 --> 00:15:02,820
exactly but especially things like the

405
00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:04,470
anti-vaccination crowd and things like

406
00:15:09,290 --> 00:15:06,750
that but just getting back to this TV

407
00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:09,300
appearance I was pretty impressed much I

408
00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:10,500
thought you did pretty well what was the

409
00:15:15,620 --> 00:15:13,320
name of that show that was BBC Breakfast

410
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:15,630
I mean that's the flagship TV program

411
00:15:18,769 --> 00:15:16,890
for the BBC in the morning it's watched

412
00:15:21,769 --> 00:15:18,779
by a 6 million people live so it was a

413
00:15:23,060 --> 00:15:21,779
very very bizarre situation I kind of

414
00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:23,070
found out the day before that I was

415
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:24,839
going in I thought oh god can I really

416
00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:26,880
do this am I gonna bottle this but ya

417
00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:28,800
know it was it was fun it was it was a

418
00:15:32,750 --> 00:15:30,510
bizarre situation but it was an awful

419
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:32,760
lot of fun yeah it was nice to be able

420
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:37,110
to put forward our own reasoning because

421
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:38,850
so many people will try and paint us is

422
00:15:42,380 --> 00:15:40,890
like oh well these are big evil skeptics

423
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:42,390
and they're probably being paid by Big

424
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,220
Pharma they want to take away you know

425
00:15:47,870 --> 00:15:46,560
they want to take away your choice and

426
00:15:50,590 --> 00:15:47,880
we were able to say essentially that

427
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:50,600
just at this country i mean the the

428
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:52,890
British Medical Association the junior

429
00:15:56,540 --> 00:15:55,170
doctors have had their peer cut very

430
00:15:57,949 --> 00:15:56,550
recently and they are about to go on

431
00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:57,959
strike I think next week where there's

432
00:16:01,010 --> 00:15:59,279
going to be the first strike on the NHS

433
00:16:03,020 --> 00:16:01,020
full striking in

434
00:16:04,940 --> 00:16:03,030
got very very many years so I was able

435
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:04,950
to say take five million pounds away

436
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:06,570
from homeopathy what can you do with

437
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:07,680
that money well you could give it to the

438
00:16:11,150 --> 00:16:09,180
junior doctors for 14 people who think

439
00:16:12,020 --> 00:16:11,160
five millions not much tell that to the

440
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:12,030
people who haven't go on strike because

441
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:14,370
out an air pear cut yet we're financing

442
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:15,600
something we know doesn't work so was

443
00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:17,250
able to put those arguments across

444
00:16:21,650 --> 00:16:19,230
result was a was very valuable to get to

445
00:16:23,390 --> 00:16:21,660
get a message out there I think so and

446
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:23,400
what I'll do focuses I'll linked the

447
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:25,530
video of michael marshall on that show

448
00:16:29,660 --> 00:16:28,290
in this week's show note so you can just

449
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:29,670
google the name of the show and Michael

450
00:16:33,380 --> 00:16:31,410
Marshall I'm sure it'll come up in

451
00:16:35,770 --> 00:16:33,390
youtube it was it was quite a good

452
00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:35,780
performance and that the man you were

453
00:16:41,510 --> 00:16:39,360
pitted against was interesting this what

454
00:16:43,580 --> 00:16:41,520
one thing that really took me when I was

455
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:43,590
watching it is when he was claiming

456
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:46,560
something what was yes there is minut

457
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:49,290
something particle all the substances in

458
00:16:53,420 --> 00:16:51,090
the home homeopathic preparations

459
00:16:55,550 --> 00:16:53,430
nothing no there's not does he know what

460
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:55,560
he's talking about the other question is

461
00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:56,970
about you to do they have nothing in

462
00:17:01,190 --> 00:16:58,050
them actually the majority of

463
00:17:03,650 --> 00:17:01,200
homeopathic medicines on sale in in the

464
00:17:05,090 --> 00:17:03,660
High Street pharmacies do contain small

465
00:17:08,449 --> 00:17:05,100
amounts admittedly but they do contain

466
00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:08,459
the substances on the label yeah well

467
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:10,020
this is the thing I think and it's it's

468
00:17:13,100 --> 00:17:11,280
hard to know I mean obviously you and a

469
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:13,110
lot of pressure maybe he made an error

470
00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:15,570
of judgment i'm not quite sure but yeah

471
00:17:18,770 --> 00:17:17,160
I mean he certainly knows he's talking

472
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:18,780
about because I mean he was labeled as

473
00:17:22,699 --> 00:17:20,250
he is it came up on screen Isaiah can

474
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:22,709
consultant rheumatologist but the the

475
00:17:27,410 --> 00:17:24,240
job titles they fail to mention was that

476
00:17:28,790 --> 00:17:27,420
he's the clinical director of the London

477
00:17:30,860 --> 00:17:28,800
homeopathic hospital and he's the

478
00:17:34,030 --> 00:17:30,870
homeopath to the Queen as they didn't

479
00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:34,040
mention the his uh his deep-rooted

480
00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:36,360
career in homeopathy when they put his

481
00:17:39,860 --> 00:17:38,550
job title up but yeah so I was pointing

482
00:17:41,180 --> 00:17:39,870
out because if the thing is all the way

483
00:17:42,620 --> 00:17:41,190
through is that the morning as they were

484
00:17:43,910 --> 00:17:42,630
trailing this on TV they were saying

485
00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:43,920
well it's about taking if something

486
00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:45,630
taking a little bit of something that

487
00:17:48,740 --> 00:17:47,220
would cause an illness to get rid of an

488
00:17:51,020 --> 00:17:48,750
illness so it's at it's like taking

489
00:17:52,610 --> 00:17:51,030
pollen to cure her fever so when I went

490
00:17:53,540 --> 00:17:52,620
on the first thing I said was well we

491
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:53,550
need to know what we're talking about

492
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:55,530
this is substances I've got nothing at

493
00:17:58,970 --> 00:17:56,970
all in these treatments that just sugar

494
00:18:01,010 --> 00:17:58,980
pills there is no apollon in the hay

495
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:01,020
fever tablet there's no sulfur in the

496
00:18:04,340 --> 00:18:02,730
sulfur tablets they're just sugar pills

497
00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:04,350
which i think is a very key point to get

498
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:06,390
across it's a point we have to keep

499
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:10,410
making and maggie in making because many

500
00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:12,210
people out there in the media to are

501
00:18:16,620 --> 00:18:13,600
under the impression

502
00:18:18,510 --> 00:18:16,630
homeopathy is small doses of something

503
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:18,520
or other and yes we have to keep

504
00:18:23,279 --> 00:18:20,650
hammering the fact that no it's no dose

505
00:18:25,620 --> 00:18:23,289
it's nothing it's Lloyd yeah and yeah

506
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:25,630
and I wonder how much of the the

507
00:18:30,779 --> 00:18:27,610
homeopathy lobby groups to hold me off

508
00:18:32,909 --> 00:18:30,789
the industry bodies want to keep that

509
00:18:35,310 --> 00:18:32,919
confusion alive so they want they want

510
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:35,320
outright lie because that would be very

511
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:36,970
very unwise if than board there well say

512
00:18:40,529 --> 00:18:38,770
is that while we take my new doses and

513
00:18:42,539 --> 00:18:40,539
we with their very diluted but they

514
00:18:44,580 --> 00:18:42,549
won't say how dilute it they won't tell

515
00:18:46,529 --> 00:18:44,590
you there's nothing in it and this is

516
00:18:48,419 --> 00:18:46,539
the reason that I think that's such a

517
00:18:50,190 --> 00:18:48,429
powerful hard to infer for skeptics

518
00:18:51,419 --> 00:18:50,200
because the moment that you start

519
00:18:53,310 --> 00:18:51,429
pointing out there is nothing in

520
00:18:55,049 --> 00:18:53,320
homeopathy the homie up homie past

521
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:55,059
they've got one of two choices one is to

522
00:18:58,289 --> 00:18:56,650
say well of course there's nothing in it

523
00:19:00,060 --> 00:18:58,299
it all works on the energies and

524
00:19:02,010 --> 00:19:00,070
vibrations of the water of the memory of

525
00:19:04,890 --> 00:19:02,020
the sugar and everyone goes sorry what

526
00:19:07,110 --> 00:19:04,900
no that sounds like nonsense all they

527
00:19:08,580 --> 00:19:07,120
have to pretend that there's something

528
00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:08,590
in it and this is something that

529
00:19:11,970 --> 00:19:10,030
happened when I was talking to peter

530
00:19:13,620 --> 00:19:11,980
fisher that the Queen's homeopath he

531
00:19:15,450 --> 00:19:13,630
said well actually the majority of

532
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:15,460
homeopathic remedies on sale do have

533
00:19:19,470 --> 00:19:17,110
something in it i'll be at small amounts

534
00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:19,480
now that simply isn't true i don't know

535
00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:20,980
where he's got bad information from I

536
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:23,260
mean I looked across the the big

537
00:19:27,330 --> 00:19:25,510
homeopathic retailers peak like Nelson's

538
00:19:29,310 --> 00:19:27,340
the majority of actually in a quick

539
00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:29,320
analysis of what they sailed them to

540
00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:31,120
sell the majority of them simply have

541
00:19:36,090 --> 00:19:33,150
nothing in I mean because you have the

542
00:19:37,950 --> 00:19:36,100
anything below 12 12 see we have a

543
00:19:39,450 --> 00:19:37,960
gradual limit might still contain

544
00:19:41,210 --> 00:19:39,460
something so if it's typically you'll

545
00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:41,220
buy remedies that are 30 c or above

546
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:44,440
sometimes you'll buy 6 c which is a one

547
00:19:48,510 --> 00:19:46,450
with 12 zeroes after it that's how how

548
00:19:50,279 --> 00:19:48,520
much how well dilute it is it's not past

549
00:19:52,350 --> 00:19:50,289
the Avogadro limit so it may still be

550
00:19:54,029 --> 00:19:52,360
something in it tiny tiny amounts but

551
00:19:56,430 --> 00:19:54,039
the thing is most places that sell

552
00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:56,440
homeopathy of 40 different homeopathic

553
00:20:00,990 --> 00:19:58,570
treatments 30 of them will be 30 c or

554
00:20:02,909 --> 00:20:01,000
above and they might have 10 6 c1 so

555
00:20:04,890 --> 00:20:02,919
even just looking at it looking at it

556
00:20:07,529 --> 00:20:04,900
like that the majority certainly have

557
00:20:09,450 --> 00:20:07,539
nothing in it and that's a very untrue

558
00:20:10,919 --> 00:20:09,460
statement that mr. Fisher or dr. Fisher

559
00:20:12,149 --> 00:20:10,929
made during that interview it's

560
00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:12,159
unfortunate didn't have the chance to

561
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:14,140
come back on that and because you don't

562
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:16,330
to get in a tit-for-tat basically well

563
00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:17,650
and it's also something I've learned

564
00:20:21,450 --> 00:20:19,510
after many years of doing this too is

565
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:21,460
that when you're in a situation like

566
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:23,770
that noon you're having some sort of

567
00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:26,410
media debate with somebody and you know

568
00:20:30,430 --> 00:20:28,880
the points and you know what you're

569
00:20:32,350 --> 00:20:30,440
saying is backed up by the evidence and

570
00:20:35,170 --> 00:20:32,360
they make an outrageous statement you

571
00:20:38,590 --> 00:20:35,180
can't always nail it you cannot and you

572
00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:38,600
can lose sleep thinking why didn't I say

573
00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:40,310
this why didn't I say this sometimes you

574
00:20:45,610 --> 00:20:44,240
do you do yeah yeah but it's very sorry

575
00:20:47,170 --> 00:20:45,620
you make a choice about what you're

576
00:20:48,940 --> 00:20:47,180
focusing on and the point that I focused

577
00:20:52,270 --> 00:20:48,950
on which i think is also a very good

578
00:20:54,190 --> 00:20:52,280
argument to use is that we're talking

579
00:20:56,980 --> 00:20:54,200
about something that for five years at

580
00:20:58,960 --> 00:20:56,990
least the NHS the government the every

581
00:21:00,820 --> 00:20:58,970
scientific chief science officer the

582
00:21:02,170 --> 00:21:00,830
British Medical Association they've been

583
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:02,180
unanimous that this stuff doesn't work

584
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:04,490
so the NHS has said this thing does not

585
00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:06,080
work and yet we're going to spend five

586
00:21:09,340 --> 00:21:07,790
million pounds a year on it since then

587
00:21:10,990 --> 00:21:09,350
now the point I was making on the show

588
00:21:12,610 --> 00:21:11,000
was that if what we were talking about

589
00:21:14,260 --> 00:21:12,620
was a pharmaceutical rather than

590
00:21:16,180 --> 00:21:14,270
homeopathy there would be nobody

591
00:21:17,770 --> 00:21:16,190
defending that not one person would come

592
00:21:18,850 --> 00:21:17,780
on and say well actually I think we

593
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:18,860
should have a good look at the evidence

594
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:20,090
and maybe people should be allowed to

595
00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:21,770
choose it and maybe we should have it

596
00:21:25,630 --> 00:21:24,020
there until more studies done no there

597
00:21:27,670 --> 00:21:25,640
was no there's no way in the world you'd

598
00:21:29,230 --> 00:21:27,680
allow a pharma company to put a drug on

599
00:21:30,850 --> 00:21:29,240
the NHS and spent five million pounds

600
00:21:32,830 --> 00:21:30,860
when the NHS has looked at the evidence

601
00:21:34,420 --> 00:21:32,840
says it does not work we'd be outraged

602
00:21:36,250 --> 00:21:34,430
by this but because it's got home

603
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:36,260
because it's called homeopathy because

604
00:21:40,030 --> 00:21:37,810
it's got this special privileged status

605
00:21:41,710 --> 00:21:40,040
we like to say well it's patient choice

606
00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:41,720
well patients have a right to choose

607
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:45,470
between things that work it's deceitful

608
00:21:49,330 --> 00:21:47,570
or certainly incredibly misleading to

609
00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:49,340
give patients a choice of one of two

610
00:21:52,330 --> 00:21:50,840
different things and you know one

611
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:52,340
doesn't work and you don't tell them

612
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:54,290
which is which that's not informed

613
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:55,970
consent you know it's not patient choice

614
00:22:00,850 --> 00:21:58,010
that's a fool's choice you know it's a

615
00:22:03,010 --> 00:22:00,860
it's a it's a broken choice early as

616
00:22:05,980 --> 00:22:03,020
well if I might use a Liverpool analogy

617
00:22:07,870 --> 00:22:05,990
it's a long and winding road I feel the

618
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:07,880
years well actually there's another big

619
00:22:10,810 --> 00:22:09,110
thing going on with homeopathy at the

620
00:22:13,180 --> 00:22:10,820
moment so i mentioned that that this

621
00:22:14,830 --> 00:22:13,190
blacklisting will prevent a gps

622
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:14,840
prescribing but that's only one slice of

623
00:22:17,830 --> 00:22:16,640
bird the funding the other way that

624
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:17,840
we're challenging the funding is to look

625
00:22:21,580 --> 00:22:19,370
at every little bit around the country

626
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:21,590
and to see whether the way that they

627
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:24,650
they justify funding actually plays by

628
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:26,690
the rules is it actually lawful and so I

629
00:22:30,340 --> 00:22:28,130
think I wasn't sure little while ago

630
00:22:32,110 --> 00:22:30,350
talking about this big thing we've been

631
00:22:34,510 --> 00:22:32,120
managed to achieve in Liverpool where

632
00:22:35,770 --> 00:22:34,520
we'd challenge the local health service

633
00:22:37,540 --> 00:22:35,780
to say you've made this decision to

634
00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:37,550
spend money in homeopathy the way you've

635
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:38,990
made this decision does not go by the

636
00:22:41,950 --> 00:22:39,890
books

637
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:41,960
we're going to take you to court unless

638
00:22:45,460 --> 00:22:43,280
you rescind the decision and makes it

639
00:22:47,380 --> 00:22:45,470
actually is consult see what you mean

640
00:22:48,970 --> 00:22:47,390
will rescind the decision and have that

641
00:22:50,050 --> 00:22:48,980
consultation open and we've been in

642
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:50,060
touch with them to make sure we can see

643
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:51,290
how that consultation is going to be

644
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:53,510
designed that consultation is now open

645
00:22:58,090 --> 00:22:56,240
and it's open until December 22nd so it

646
00:23:00,670 --> 00:22:58,100
means that again this is an opportunity

647
00:23:01,930 --> 00:23:00,680
for skeptical voices in Liverpool and if

648
00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:01,940
there's any skeptical voice in Liverpool

649
00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:03,200
who don't already know about the merger

650
00:23:06,610 --> 00:23:04,640
I'd skeptic society but do listen to

651
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:06,620
shore I will be frankly disappointed in

652
00:23:10,180 --> 00:23:08,570
you listeners but yeah so people in

653
00:23:12,490 --> 00:23:10,190
Liverpool can answer if you I think even

654
00:23:13,870 --> 00:23:12,500
if in the UK you can take a survey now

655
00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:13,880
it might well be that at the end they

656
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:15,350
say well we'll just look at the ones in

657
00:23:18,670 --> 00:23:17,360
livable and you spent two or three

658
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:18,680
minutes filling something in that

659
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:20,570
doesn't but isn't helpful but the flip

660
00:23:23,740 --> 00:23:22,250
side is you might they might look at it

661
00:23:25,330 --> 00:23:23,750
and say well the majority of these are

662
00:23:26,410 --> 00:23:25,340
in Liverpool so we'll with them but

663
00:23:28,030 --> 00:23:26,420
these are the ones over here have made

664
00:23:30,130 --> 00:23:28,040
some very good points so it might still

665
00:23:31,810 --> 00:23:30,140
be worth you carelessness dropping over

666
00:23:33,790 --> 00:23:31,820
to the survey and just filling that in

667
00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:33,800
because it really can't harm because I

668
00:23:37,330 --> 00:23:35,510
guarantee there are homeopaths all

669
00:23:39,580 --> 00:23:37,340
around the UK offering their thoughts on

670
00:23:42,010 --> 00:23:39,590
that service so yeah hopefully this is

671
00:23:44,290 --> 00:23:42,020
the first big opportunity we've got to

672
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:44,300
follow through our legal action and and

673
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:47,810
push homeopathy onto the agenda and off

674
00:23:51,460 --> 00:23:49,610
the NHS you know if it's if it can't be

675
00:23:53,290 --> 00:23:51,470
lawfully justified so there's a real

676
00:23:56,350 --> 00:23:53,300
opportunity here and this is the first

677
00:23:59,080 --> 00:23:56,360
of what we will do in each different

678
00:24:00,430 --> 00:23:59,090
region that funds it until we either get

679
00:24:02,350 --> 00:24:00,440
rid of it or until they can finally find

680
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:02,360
a way of saying actually our decision is

681
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:04,880
completely legal completely lawful you

682
00:24:08,950 --> 00:24:06,770
know as far as we can tell I can't see a

683
00:24:09,970 --> 00:24:08,960
way that it can be but you never know

684
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:09,980
how these things go but this is

685
00:24:13,860 --> 00:24:11,930
certainly a really great very strong

686
00:24:17,890 --> 00:24:13,870
opportunity for a real success here

687
00:24:19,860 --> 00:24:17,900
that's fantastic so what what our

688
00:24:22,750 --> 00:24:19,870
listeners do should they run to your

689
00:24:24,670 --> 00:24:22,760
website if they haven't done already how

690
00:24:26,380 --> 00:24:24,680
else can they help you well I think the

691
00:24:27,940 --> 00:24:26,390
best thing to do there as there's two

692
00:24:29,260 --> 00:24:27,950
things they can do if you go to the

693
00:24:30,670 --> 00:24:29,270
Merseyside skeptics Society website

694
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:30,680
we've got a statement up there about

695
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:32,090
this consultation because obviously it's

696
00:24:35,350 --> 00:24:33,650
a Liverpool thing we want to keep it

697
00:24:37,660 --> 00:24:35,360
with the community group and in good

698
00:24:39,850 --> 00:24:37,670
thinking who I work for as obviously

699
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:39,860
supporting the MSS who I call run so

700
00:24:42,940 --> 00:24:41,090
it's a slightly odd thing have a good

701
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:42,950
foot in both camps but it's a it's a

702
00:24:48,730 --> 00:24:45,310
fortunate I said I know what that's like

703
00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:48,740
yes if you got a motorcycle kept excuse

704
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:50,240
eee a statement there about what you can

705
00:24:53,650 --> 00:24:52,490
do with Thea this uh this consultation

706
00:24:54,550 --> 00:24:53,660
the survey

707
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:54,560
and the other thing that we need in

708
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:56,210
terms of good thinking is help funding

709
00:24:59,800 --> 00:24:57,770
our work so obviously this is taken a

710
00:25:01,360 --> 00:24:59,810
lot of time a lot of my time over the

711
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:01,370
last kind of girl literally hundreds

712
00:25:05,230 --> 00:25:03,440
maybe even thousands of hours by this

713
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:05,240
point of Alaska you're 18 months to get

714
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:06,650
to a point where we've got this foothold

715
00:25:11,410 --> 00:25:08,810
and it's taken legal consultation as

716
00:25:12,670 --> 00:25:11,420
well so any listeners who appreciate the

717
00:25:14,380 --> 00:25:12,680
work that we're doing and think that

718
00:25:16,660 --> 00:25:14,390
homeopathy shouldn't be on the NHS in

719
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:16,670
Liverpool and in the whole country and

720
00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:18,080
want to do something to help than

721
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:19,430
certainly helping us out with a bit of

722
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:20,930
funding is it would be absolutely

723
00:25:24,970 --> 00:25:22,400
phenomenal and the way to do that is to

724
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:24,980
go to good thinking society org forward

725
00:25:29,050 --> 00:25:27,170
slash doughnut and you can either throw

726
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:29,060
some money in is a one-off or you can

727
00:25:34,030 --> 00:25:31,970
set up a small monthly donation and that

728
00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:34,040
funds all of our work and it's it's are

729
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:36,110
really one of our very few sources of

730
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:37,850
funding and it's the kind of thing

731
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:39,770
that'll keep us going doing the work

732
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:40,850
we've been doing in the work I've been

733
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:42,290
talking about on this show when I up

734
00:25:46,150 --> 00:25:44,810
here semi-regularly it'll keep us going

735
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:46,160
for a lot longer so yeah that's a

736
00:25:50,010 --> 00:25:47,840
that'll be a huge huge bonus for us I

737
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:50,020
would really really help good thinking

738
00:25:55,290 --> 00:25:53,120
society dot org folks head there good

739
00:25:58,930 --> 00:25:55,300
thinking society org forward slash

740
00:26:01,900 --> 00:25:58,940
donate that's what I'd like all all

741
00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:01,910
skeptics own UK listeners to do in fact

742
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:04,130
all folks wherever you are around the

743
00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:05,840
world certainly certainly would

744
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:08,390
recommend a visit to good thinking

745
00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:10,720
society org where you can find out more

746
00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:13,310
marsh it's been a great pleasure once

747
00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:15,080
again to have you on the show as a a

748
00:26:20,410 --> 00:26:18,320
semi-regular sort of contributor which

749
00:26:23,470 --> 00:26:20,420
I'm quite pleased about please give my

750
00:26:26,170 --> 00:26:23,480
best to Simon Singh and family I will do

751
00:26:29,230 --> 00:26:26,180
absolutely he's a he's a top bloke and

752
00:26:31,570 --> 00:26:29,240
as I remind him every time I see him one

753
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:31,580
of the best books i have ever written on

754
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:35,360
any topic ever was his code book mmm it

755
00:26:41,140 --> 00:26:39,170
was superb because even somebody like me

756
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:41,150
after reading that book I understood how

757
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,850
the Enigma machine worked and if anybody

758
00:26:46,780 --> 00:26:45,200
can explain that in such a way that

759
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:46,790
people like me can understand it that

760
00:26:51,220 --> 00:26:49,310
says enough I think yeah absolutely i

761
00:26:53,770 --> 00:26:51,230
mean yeah when you read Simon's books

762
00:26:55,450 --> 00:26:53,780
he's got a knack of making complicated

763
00:26:57,670 --> 00:26:55,460
things seem straightforward and easy and

764
00:26:59,320 --> 00:26:57,680
that's a it's a real talent so yeah

765
00:27:01,300 --> 00:26:59,330
working with Simon's are always always

766
00:27:02,980 --> 00:27:01,310
been a pleasure and yeah the work we're

767
00:27:04,270 --> 00:27:02,990
doing is great and it's it's always a

768
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:04,280
pleasure speaking to you as well Richard

769
00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:06,110
I love being on the show thanks Marsh

770
00:27:08,030 --> 00:27:06,640
and I hope

771
00:27:29,250 --> 00:27:08,040
catch up in the not-too-distant future

772
00:27:31,740 --> 00:27:29,260
thank you i hope so I want to help

773
00:27:34,410 --> 00:27:31,750
support the skeptic zonin look pretty

774
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:34,420
damn stylish while you're about it visit

775
00:27:41,850 --> 00:27:39,520
mr. Katz origami jewelry WWE pegs on TV

776
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:41,860
and click the link or simply Google mr.

777
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:45,450
Katz origami jewelry also on Facebook

778
00:28:03,840 --> 00:27:49,330
pendants earrings and cufflinks support

779
00:28:08,310 --> 00:28:03,850
mr. cat support the skeptic zone what we

780
00:28:12,089 --> 00:28:08,320
want is some more evidence please is joe

781
00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:16,050
hello this is Joe alabaster

782
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:20,900
the mother of a four month old boy with

783
00:28:26,210 --> 00:28:23,610
pertussis uploaded footage of her son

784
00:28:56,300 --> 00:28:26,220
coughing onto facebook with a passionate

785
00:28:58,760 --> 00:28:56,310
play for people to vaccinate Rebecca

786
00:29:01,040 --> 00:28:58,770
Harriman of Brisbane posted the video a

787
00:29:03,380 --> 00:29:01,050
week ago on the fourteenth of November

788
00:29:07,010 --> 00:29:03,390
alongside her thoughts as she cares for

789
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:07,020
baby Austin it has since had over 1.5

790
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:09,450
million views and thirty-two thousand

791
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:11,850
shares with news stations and sites

792
00:29:17,210 --> 00:29:14,810
around the world picking up the story

793
00:29:20,030 --> 00:29:17,220
alongside hundreds of supportive

794
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:20,040
messages Rebecca's also received many

795
00:29:25,370 --> 00:29:23,370
from anti-vaccination asst who on top of

796
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:25,380
criticizing her support for vaccinations

797
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:27,120
have been causing her trouble by

798
00:29:32,210 --> 00:29:29,250
reporting a family portrait on her

799
00:29:34,010 --> 00:29:32,220
Facebook page for nudity all this as

800
00:29:36,620 --> 00:29:34,020
baby Austin was being taken back to

801
00:29:38,150 --> 00:29:36,630
hospital she has since locked down her

802
00:29:40,580 --> 00:29:38,160
facebook page so that she can

803
00:29:43,510 --> 00:29:40,590
concentrate on her family son and his

804
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:43,520
health the media coverage on this has

805
00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:46,410
fortunately been incredibly positive a

806
00:29:51,770 --> 00:29:48,510
huge contrast from the days of false

807
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:51,780
balance on the topic of vaccination as a

808
00:29:55,580 --> 00:29:53,520
demonstration of the caliber of

809
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:55,590
discourse in the media I'd like to play

810
00:30:00,170 --> 00:29:57,810
for you this segment from ABC's current

811
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:00,180
affairs panel show the drum which played

812
00:30:04,730 --> 00:30:02,310
on the seventeenth of November and was

813
00:30:08,030 --> 00:30:04,740
hosted by Julia bed featuring michael

814
00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:08,040
Cooney David miles and sunanda Cray with

815
00:30:12,980 --> 00:30:10,590
guests Leigh sales anti-vaccination

816
00:30:15,230 --> 00:30:12,990
activists have bombarded an Australian

817
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:15,240
woman with messages and attacks after

818
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:17,430
she posted a facebook video of her son

819
00:30:22,190 --> 00:30:20,130
suffering from whooping cough Rebecca

820
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:22,200
Harriman from Brisbane wrote for those

821
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:24,330
of you sitting on the fence on whether

822
00:30:28,799 --> 00:30:26,640
to vaccinate yourself and your kids or

823
00:30:31,649 --> 00:30:28,809
not maybe this video

824
00:30:34,049 --> 00:30:31,659
convince you the Clippers had over half

825
00:30:36,090 --> 00:30:34,059
a million hits in addition to supportive

826
00:30:38,340 --> 00:30:36,100
messages rebecca has received hundreds

827
00:30:40,499 --> 00:30:38,350
of abusive posts for criticizing

828
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:40,509
anti-vaxxers and she's now set of

829
00:30:44,759 --> 00:30:42,850
Facebook settings to private to focus on

830
00:30:46,980 --> 00:30:44,769
her son's health who is now back in

831
00:30:48,090 --> 00:30:46,990
hospital the last time of writing what

832
00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:48,100
do you make of the power of such a

833
00:30:52,259 --> 00:30:50,289
personal stories and under in all of

834
00:30:54,450 --> 00:30:52,269
this well humans relate to personal

835
00:30:55,710 --> 00:30:54,460
stories don't be and you know scientists

836
00:30:58,499 --> 00:30:55,720
are normally very critical of what they

837
00:31:00,690 --> 00:30:58,509
call anecdotal which is you know my son

838
00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:00,700
did this or my father did that so

839
00:31:03,629 --> 00:31:02,529
therefore such and such and they say

840
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:03,639
that you know we should look to the

841
00:31:08,580 --> 00:31:06,730
scientific findings and the research

842
00:31:12,029 --> 00:31:08,590
data but in this case the attic data

843
00:31:14,879 --> 00:31:12,039
derogatory to answer me I got it anak

844
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:14,889
data is definitely but in this case the

845
00:31:18,210 --> 00:31:16,570
anecdotal is doing the work of the

846
00:31:20,249 --> 00:31:18,220
scientists it's convincing people that

847
00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:20,259
there is a problem here and that the the

848
00:31:24,690 --> 00:31:22,960
consequences are really serious hmm it's

849
00:31:26,730 --> 00:31:24,700
really fighting fire with fire as now I

850
00:31:29,220 --> 00:31:26,740
mean what you've got from anti-vaxxers

851
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:29,230
over time is precisely kind of emotive

852
00:31:32,489 --> 00:31:31,090
rubbish designed to distract and disturb

853
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:32,499
people and get them to do the wrong

854
00:31:35,850 --> 00:31:34,570
thing by their kids and here's a here's

855
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:35,860
a case of someone fighting back

856
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:38,049
essentially which is terrific and a bit

857
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:40,210
to be applauded it's fantastic what do

858
00:31:45,570 --> 00:31:42,129
you think Lee of like of seeing this

859
00:31:47,070 --> 00:31:45,580
video of this kid almost choking and guy

860
00:31:49,950 --> 00:31:47,080
going blue with something that is

861
00:31:51,330 --> 00:31:49,960
preventable look it just it disturbs me

862
00:31:53,369 --> 00:31:51,340
when people put their faith in things

863
00:31:56,190 --> 00:31:53,379
other than reason evidence and science

864
00:31:58,560 --> 00:31:56,200
and the anti-vaccination view is not

865
00:32:01,859 --> 00:31:58,570
supported by science so you know please

866
00:32:04,289 --> 00:32:01,869
people do not sign up to that nonsense I

867
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:04,299
mean it's there's this correlate false

868
00:32:08,039 --> 00:32:05,710
correlations that they draw where they

869
00:32:09,899 --> 00:32:08,049
say well you know right to vaccinations

870
00:32:11,850 --> 00:32:09,909
vaccination of increased and so of rates

871
00:32:13,769 --> 00:32:11,860
of autism also of rates of breastfeeding

872
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:13,779
so let's say it's breastfeeding that's

873
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:15,279
causing autism like it's just nonsense

874
00:32:18,930 --> 00:32:17,200
number of motor vehicles on the road has

875
00:32:19,919 --> 00:32:18,940
increased dramatically over the years

876
00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:19,929
and I don't think that's linked to

877
00:32:24,869 --> 00:32:22,480
autism either and in fact vaccinations

878
00:32:27,659 --> 00:32:24,879
and autism has been disproved that's it

879
00:32:29,669 --> 00:32:27,669
so many times now that people keep

880
00:32:31,499 --> 00:32:29,679
saying it from one study that was

881
00:32:32,940 --> 00:32:31,509
discredited and the person was did you

882
00:32:34,769 --> 00:32:32,950
know was removed from any medical

883
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:34,779
register as well so what sort of person

884
00:32:38,549 --> 00:32:36,490
even if you disagree with their views

885
00:32:40,139 --> 00:32:38,559
sends an abusive message to a woman

886
00:32:41,180 --> 00:32:40,149
whose child has whooping cough like I

887
00:32:43,580 --> 00:32:41,190
don't care what you actually

888
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:43,590
think about her views her child has

889
00:32:47,030 --> 00:32:45,510
whooping cough like just leave it alone

890
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:47,040
she hasn't slept for three weeks she's

891
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:48,210
sitting up or not I mean that kind of

892
00:32:52,820 --> 00:32:50,250
anxiety another good honor for putting

893
00:32:54,260 --> 00:32:52,830
it up there it is an example of what

894
00:32:57,260 --> 00:32:54,270
happens when people don't vaccinate

895
00:32:58,640 --> 00:32:57,270
their kids so it is very very clear what

896
00:33:00,500 --> 00:32:58,650
happens and you know I've said it before

897
00:33:02,140 --> 00:33:00,510
I'll say it again a failure to vaccinate

898
00:33:05,390 --> 00:33:02,150
your kids is a form of child abuse

899
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:05,400
vaccinate your kids shooting illegal

900
00:33:09,050 --> 00:33:07,170
don't you yeah I mean I think

901
00:33:10,790 --> 00:33:09,060
vaccination is a very very sensible

902
00:33:12,350 --> 00:33:10,800
thing to do we flew on it you know put

903
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:12,360
fluoride in the water we've got very

904
00:33:16,190 --> 00:33:14,730
good reasons for doing so vaccine we're

905
00:33:17,180 --> 00:33:16,200
doing everything that we can or

906
00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:17,190
governments are doing everything they

907
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:18,510
can to try and make sure people

908
00:33:22,610 --> 00:33:20,910
vaccinate their kids there's no job no

909
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:22,620
pay now the things that's got Morrison

910
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:25,410
did as minister to remove religious

911
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:26,720
exemptions i think is fantastic

912
00:33:31,490 --> 00:33:29,610
conscientious objection is gone it's

913
00:33:33,730 --> 00:33:31,500
only medical reasons are the only reason

914
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:33,740
you don't can avoid a vaccination

915
00:33:38,060 --> 00:33:36,090
legally right and so they probably hate

916
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:38,070
the former other government abbott

917
00:33:40,610 --> 00:33:39,210
government for in their view they would

918
00:33:41,930 --> 00:33:40,620
see it as denying the climate change

919
00:33:43,850 --> 00:33:41,940
evidence so I'm sorry kind of it both

920
00:33:45,020 --> 00:33:43,860
ways so if you believe the science on

921
00:33:46,940 --> 00:33:45,030
climate change then you need to believe

922
00:33:48,380 --> 00:33:46,950
the science on vaccination as well so

923
00:33:50,150 --> 00:33:48,390
well and I wonder if it also hit a nerve

924
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:50,160
because there has been so much a pink

925
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:51,930
off yeah I mean what do you need

926
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:54,570
something like 92 or 95% vaccination

927
00:33:59,060 --> 00:33:56,640
rates to get hurt immunity and in some

928
00:34:01,550 --> 00:33:59,070
areas of Sydney you know it's down

929
00:34:04,970 --> 00:34:01,560
around 85 it's lower in other areas the

930
00:34:07,550 --> 00:34:04,980
far north coast there's quite scary low

931
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:07,560
vaccination rates so babies aren't

932
00:34:12,410 --> 00:34:09,450
provoked it is of course they talk about

933
00:34:15,590 --> 00:34:12,420
whooping cough season you know if that

934
00:34:16,910 --> 00:34:15,600
is not abuse of children I do not know

935
00:34:18,980 --> 00:34:16,920
what is ok we're going to leave it on

936
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:18,990
that strong note here David that's it

937
00:34:21,950 --> 00:34:20,130
for the drone thanks to our panel

938
00:34:24,650 --> 00:34:21,960
Michael Cooney David miles and sunanda

939
00:34:28,670 --> 00:34:24,660
cray and a special guest lease sales our

940
00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:28,680
website has more as always ABCD a view /

941
00:34:34,240 --> 00:34:30,240
the drum we back again tomorrow night

942
00:34:36,770 --> 00:34:34,250
we'll see you then this is fantastic

943
00:34:38,690 --> 00:34:36,780
primetime television is featuring

944
00:34:40,850 --> 00:34:38,700
conversations on the importance of

945
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:40,860
making evidence-based health decisions

946
00:34:45,950 --> 00:34:43,170
correlation not being equal to causation

947
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:45,960
herd immunity the cherry picking nature

948
00:34:49,580 --> 00:34:47,970
of some anti-vaccination campaigners

949
00:34:51,410 --> 00:34:49,590
accepting the science on climate change

950
00:34:54,050 --> 00:34:51,420
but not the science supporting

951
00:34:54,889 --> 00:34:54,060
vaccination not a second is being given

952
00:34:56,299 --> 00:34:54,899
to hearing the

953
00:34:58,940 --> 00:34:56,309
false claims of anti-vaccination

954
00:35:02,750 --> 00:34:58,950
advocates only condemnation of their

955
00:35:04,250 --> 00:35:02,760
views and their behavior five days ago a

956
00:35:06,740 --> 00:35:04,260
whooping cough alert was issued for

957
00:35:09,740 --> 00:35:06,750
Brisbane following a spike in reported

958
00:35:11,930 --> 00:35:09,750
cases there is also an alert in Ipswich

959
00:35:14,859 --> 00:35:11,940
with for infections confirmed in young

960
00:35:17,630 --> 00:35:14,869
children some babies in the past month

961
00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:17,640
just to reminder that pregnant mothers

962
00:35:22,010 --> 00:35:19,950
are recommended to receive pertussis

963
00:35:24,289 --> 00:35:22,020
boosters in their third trimester which

964
00:35:26,299 --> 00:35:24,299
can help protect newborns by a conferred

965
00:35:28,460 --> 00:35:26,309
immunity during those first few months

966
00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:28,470
of life when a baby is too young to have

967
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:29,910
received the full three doses of

968
00:35:34,099 --> 00:35:32,130
pertussis vaccine it's also worth

969
00:35:35,710 --> 00:35:34,109
chatting with your GP and seeing whether

970
00:35:37,579 --> 00:35:35,720
you're due for a booster vaccine

971
00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:37,589
especially if you're welcoming a new

972
00:35:41,950 --> 00:35:39,660
addition to your family or are likely to

973
00:35:44,359 --> 00:35:41,960
be around any precious newborns our

974
00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:44,369
thoughts are with the harriman family

975
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:46,529
and we hope that baby austin's recovery

976
00:35:52,370 --> 00:35:49,410
is going well for more evidence please

977
00:35:55,549 --> 00:35:52,380
visit my blog at evidence players dotnet

978
00:36:09,840 --> 00:35:55,559
or catch up with me on twitter at joe

979
00:36:14,530 --> 00:36:12,610
welcome to weaken science from RI oz

980
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:14,540
bringing you the science you need

981
00:36:19,810 --> 00:36:17,450
tonight Sahir Khan Jimmy Anderson and

982
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:19,820
Damien Fleming a masters of swinging a

983
00:36:23,740 --> 00:36:21,710
cricket ball in the air and I've got the

984
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:23,750
differences between smooth and turbulent

985
00:36:33,970 --> 00:36:25,310
airflow to thank for their prodigious

986
00:36:36,070 --> 00:36:33,980
abilities when traveling through the air

987
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:36,080
a cricket ball want to move towards the

988
00:36:40,810 --> 00:36:37,730
side which has the more turbulent

989
00:36:42,910 --> 00:36:40,820
airflow let me explain why to swing your

990
00:36:45,250 --> 00:36:42,920
cricket ball conventionally the seam is

991
00:36:47,380 --> 00:36:45,260
angled to one side meaning that as the

992
00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:47,390
ball flies through the air the smooth

993
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:49,390
side of the ball causes smooth airflow

994
00:36:54,460 --> 00:36:52,400
but the same trips up the air and causes

995
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:54,470
turbulence on the other side the

996
00:36:58,900 --> 00:36:56,690
turbulent air stays closed or attached

997
00:37:01,570 --> 00:36:58,910
to the ball for longer than the smooth

998
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:01,580
laminar flying side this causes a

999
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:03,410
difference in pressure on each side of

1000
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:04,970
the ball with less pressure on the

1001
00:37:09,820 --> 00:37:07,130
turbulent side making the ball move

1002
00:37:11,830 --> 00:37:09,830
towards the same the maximum amounts of

1003
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:11,840
side force is generated at a ball and

1004
00:37:16,690 --> 00:37:14,810
speed of around 70 miles per hour what

1005
00:37:21,460 --> 00:37:16,700
happens above that well that's when we

1006
00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:21,470
start getting reverse swing above 85

1007
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:23,510
miles an hour the air doesn't need

1008
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:25,610
interference to start becoming turbulent

1009
00:37:29,830 --> 00:37:28,010
on the surface of the ball in this case

1010
00:37:32,950 --> 00:37:29,840
the seam of the ball makes that already

1011
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:32,960
turbulent air even Messier this extra

1012
00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:34,850
messy air will actually detach from the

1013
00:37:38,830 --> 00:37:36,710
surface quicker than the modelling

1014
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:38,840
turbulent air on the other side causing

1015
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:40,610
the low air pressure to be on the

1016
00:37:45,370 --> 00:37:43,010
opposite side and the ball swinging away

1017
00:37:47,530 --> 00:37:45,380
from the same and if the ball is being

1018
00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:47,540
bowled with the same straight the same

1019
00:37:51,790 --> 00:37:49,760
forces are in play but using the smooth

1020
00:37:54,850 --> 00:37:51,800
and rough sides of the ball to create

1021
00:37:56,770 --> 00:37:54,860
different air flows on each side and now

1022
00:37:59,320 --> 00:37:56,780
for fast facts about the science of

1023
00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:01,960
this is a slightly different effect two

1024
00:38:05,980 --> 00:38:03,710
swinging a soccer ball where the

1025
00:38:07,630 --> 00:38:05,990
horizontal rotation of the ball creates

1026
00:38:10,060 --> 00:38:07,640
differences in air resistance and

1027
00:38:11,950 --> 00:38:10,070
attachment on each side baseball

1028
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:11,960
pitchers curved the same way to a soccer

1029
00:38:16,150 --> 00:38:14,000
ball the rotation of the ball in one

1030
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:16,160
direction causes the difference in air

1031
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:18,650
attachment facing a fast bowler a

1032
00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:20,570
batsman has around half a second to

1033
00:38:25,540 --> 00:38:22,910
assess the trajectory of a ball choose a

1034
00:38:27,790 --> 00:38:25,550
shot and play it and if you're as sick

1035
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:27,800
as me seeing a bowler ball repeated no

1036
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:30,170
balls if they move their foot 15

1037
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:31,970
centimeters backward to remove the

1038
00:38:35,890 --> 00:38:34,160
chance of a no-ball their apparent

1039
00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:35,900
speeds of the batsman would drop by

1040
00:38:40,810 --> 00:38:38,720
around one kilometer per hour that's it

1041
00:38:43,090 --> 00:38:40,820
for this week in science for more

1042
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:43,100
information on the science of cricket go

1043
00:38:51,190 --> 00:38:47,920
to the Arias website RI aus org a you

1044
00:38:53,620 --> 00:38:51,200
follow us on twitter at ra oz and like

1045
00:39:11,920 --> 00:38:53,630
us on facebook I'm Ben Lawson will catch

1046
00:39:17,930 --> 00:39:14,960
hello Richard and all the listeners of

1047
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:17,940
skeptic zone my name is Ron levy and I'm

1048
00:39:23,300 --> 00:39:20,850
the producer and co-host of curious mind

1049
00:39:29,660 --> 00:39:23,310
it's a podcast about science technology

1050
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:29,670
and history at wwc em-pod cmp LD dot net

1051
00:39:34,130 --> 00:39:31,890
each episode will bring you interesting

1052
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:34,140
stories from a wide range of subjects

1053
00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:37,200
from physics astronomy and medicine from

1054
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:39,660
arts to science fiction we strive for

1055
00:39:43,850 --> 00:39:41,490
the highest production values both in

1056
00:39:46,580 --> 00:39:43,860
content and in delivery we already have

1057
00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:46,590
on the air episodes about German u-boats

1058
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:49,110
in Second World War about the history of

1059
00:39:56,260 --> 00:39:52,170
x-rays and the war of currents between

1060
00:40:10,690 --> 00:39:56,270
Tesla and Edison come and have a listen

1061
00:40:19,499 --> 00:40:15,410
here's my not spooky action at a

1062
00:40:24,999 --> 00:40:22,479
he is a skeptic zone favourites jobin

1063
00:40:26,739 --> 00:40:25,009
whom it without her Joe are you joking I

1064
00:40:29,140 --> 00:40:26,749
made out how you pretty good how's your

1065
00:40:31,059 --> 00:40:29,150
of your sexy research been going in

1066
00:40:32,499 --> 00:40:31,069
Melbourne but you just gotta go will

1067
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:32,509
you're working in a really interesting

1068
00:40:37,150 --> 00:40:34,249
side of signs of the man well i'm

1069
00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:37,160
working in radiation oncology and

1070
00:40:40,989 --> 00:40:39,049
specifically i'm running trials in well

1071
00:40:42,909 --> 00:40:40,999
predominantly trials and take hands up

1072
00:40:44,229 --> 00:40:42,919
all right which you know well I just

1073
00:40:45,729 --> 00:40:44,239
said sexy in the term is like it's

1074
00:40:47,319 --> 00:40:45,739
something that's really relevant and

1075
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:47,329
really important and did you think

1076
00:40:50,739 --> 00:40:48,410
there's enough work gets done in that

1077
00:40:52,929 --> 00:40:50,749
area or not well i mean i think that to

1078
00:40:56,140 --> 00:40:52,939
one of the two areas that get a huge

1079
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:56,150
amount of attention in research in well

1080
00:41:00,130 --> 00:40:57,890
generally in oncology are breast cancer

1081
00:41:02,349 --> 00:41:00,140
and prostate cancer hmm and typically in

1082
00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:02,359
the past i think prostate cancer less so

1083
00:41:07,539 --> 00:41:05,569
because I think breast cancer being you

1084
00:41:08,859 --> 00:41:07,549
know predominantly suffered by women it

1085
00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:08,869
had a lot more attention through a lot

1086
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:10,640
of the the breast cancer advocacy groups

1087
00:41:16,599 --> 00:41:14,079
but nowadays with groups like movember

1088
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:16,609
prostate cancer and men's issues I think

1089
00:41:20,709 --> 00:41:19,130
are becoming much well it also means

1090
00:41:23,859 --> 00:41:20,719
that every november there's guys getting

1091
00:41:26,649 --> 00:41:23,869
around in a bad porn film looks like you

1092
00:41:29,409 --> 00:41:26,659
know out of it out of a porn media mixer

1093
00:41:31,659 --> 00:41:29,419
actor oh yeah it's good wrestler yeah

1094
00:41:33,370 --> 00:41:31,669
yeah i know that's the only downside of

1095
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:33,380
it now i'm gonna get into the

1096
00:41:37,539 --> 00:41:35,119
controversial factor of the PSI rating

1097
00:41:40,029 --> 00:41:37,549
because it good yeah PSA really sorry

1098
00:41:41,649 --> 00:41:40,039
yeah i'm now there's been conflict over

1099
00:41:42,669 --> 00:41:41,659
whether you should pay attention to the

1100
00:41:44,289 --> 00:41:42,679
menorah whether you should get one early

1101
00:41:45,969 --> 00:41:44,299
and get a base rate what's the

1102
00:41:47,529 --> 00:41:45,979
scientific thinking on the PSA at the

1103
00:41:49,059 --> 00:41:47,539
moment okay well i mean i can't i can't

1104
00:41:51,099 --> 00:41:49,069
make recommendations because I'm not a

1105
00:41:53,140 --> 00:41:51,109
doctor not a doctor so don't listen too

1106
00:41:54,789 --> 00:41:53,150
closely but I can't tell you yes there

1107
00:41:57,999 --> 00:41:54,799
is a lot of controversy around PSA

1108
00:42:00,009 --> 00:41:58,009
testing and in fact really the way I

1109
00:42:01,299 --> 00:42:00,019
think people should look at PSA and

1110
00:42:03,069 --> 00:42:01,309
incapable for people who don't know what

1111
00:42:06,789 --> 00:42:03,079
it is PSA is prostate specific antigen

1112
00:42:09,189 --> 00:42:06,799
it's a it's a biomarker that can be

1113
00:42:11,409 --> 00:42:09,199
tested in a blood test and if a PSA is

1114
00:42:13,149 --> 00:42:11,419
elevated it can be an indication that

1115
00:42:14,409 --> 00:42:13,159
someone has prostate cancer does that

1116
00:42:17,199 --> 00:42:14,419
mean you have to go right prostate out

1117
00:42:19,779 --> 00:42:17,209
not necessarily know the thing is that

1118
00:42:21,189 --> 00:42:19,789
it's also the PSA can also be raised if

1119
00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:21,199
you have something called benign

1120
00:42:24,969 --> 00:42:23,119
prostatic hypertrophy which is where a

1121
00:42:26,579 --> 00:42:24,979
man gets an a very enlarged prostate or

1122
00:42:28,620 --> 00:42:26,589
if you had a

1123
00:42:32,219 --> 00:42:28,630
re tract infection so there can be lots

1124
00:42:34,979 --> 00:42:32,229
of other pathophysiological conditions

1125
00:42:37,650 --> 00:42:34,989
that can result in PSA being raised so

1126
00:42:40,019 --> 00:42:37,660
that's simply having a high PSA doesn't

1127
00:42:42,660 --> 00:42:40,029
mean you've got prostate cancer but it's

1128
00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:42,670
a good marker for the fact that all the

1129
00:42:45,630 --> 00:42:44,319
PSA is up we need to have a look at

1130
00:42:47,099 --> 00:42:45,640
what's going on we have we've got

1131
00:42:49,620 --> 00:42:47,109
something better than PSA on the horizon

1132
00:42:51,450 --> 00:42:49,630
we do actually funny you should say that

1133
00:42:54,450 --> 00:42:51,460
because that's what I was asking yes so

1134
00:42:55,799 --> 00:42:54,460
anyways I've got a prostate yes well and

1135
00:42:57,299 --> 00:42:55,809
a lot of men don't anymore if they've

1136
00:43:00,329 --> 00:42:57,309
been through the whole rigmarole I did

1137
00:43:02,009 --> 00:43:00,339
as a cancer treatment well but there's a

1138
00:43:05,549 --> 00:43:02,019
new test that's come out recently called

1139
00:43:08,249 --> 00:43:05,559
the PSM a PET scan now this actually is

1140
00:43:11,249 --> 00:43:08,259
more for men who have been diagnosed

1141
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:11,259
with prostate cancer or where where

1142
00:43:16,349 --> 00:43:13,450
there's well let me just take a step

1143
00:43:17,309 --> 00:43:16,359
back so PSMA is caught is refers to

1144
00:43:20,910 --> 00:43:17,319
something called prostate specific

1145
00:43:24,420 --> 00:43:20,920
membrane antigen and it's found on the

1146
00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:24,430
cells of prostate cancer and and it's a

1147
00:43:28,759 --> 00:43:26,950
it's a can be picked up in a PET scan

1148
00:43:30,809 --> 00:43:28,769
which is a nuclear medicine scan

1149
00:43:32,549 --> 00:43:30,819
previously a lot of the imaging tests

1150
00:43:34,109 --> 00:43:32,559
that we use to look at how we're

1151
00:43:37,109 --> 00:43:34,119
prostate cancer has spread to in the

1152
00:43:40,829 --> 00:43:37,119
body we're not very accurate so MRIs and

1153
00:43:43,380 --> 00:43:40,839
a lot of other imaging scans you know we

1154
00:43:44,339 --> 00:43:43,390
might know that the PSA was up and if

1155
00:43:46,140 --> 00:43:44,349
you've been diagnosed with prostate

1156
00:43:48,660 --> 00:43:46,150
cancer previously then we would be able

1157
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:48,670
to say PSA is up that can tell us that

1158
00:43:51,779 --> 00:43:49,930
you know there's a likelihood that your

1159
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:51,789
prostate cancer has come back but if we

1160
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:54,130
were to do any imaging yeah we might see

1161
00:43:58,170 --> 00:43:56,170
signs of wear the prostate cancer is but

1162
00:44:00,329 --> 00:43:58,180
they're not as accurate as we would have

1163
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:00,339
liked them to be so there's a new test

1164
00:44:04,109 --> 00:44:02,170
that's been around in Australia for a

1165
00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:04,119
couple of years now called psma testing

1166
00:44:08,789 --> 00:44:06,609
and as I said it's a PET scan the older

1167
00:44:10,950 --> 00:44:08,799
styles of PET scans were not fantastic

1168
00:44:13,289 --> 00:44:10,960
for this is all modern non-invasive to

1169
00:44:15,299 --> 00:44:13,299
know well it's mildly invasive in that

1170
00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:15,309
you have to have a radioactive isotope

1171
00:44:21,029 --> 00:44:19,960
injected into a vein and and that

1172
00:44:22,499 --> 00:44:21,039
travels around the body and gets

1173
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:22,509
absorbed it gets taken up by the

1174
00:44:26,549 --> 00:44:25,119
prostate cancer cells and it lights up

1175
00:44:29,039 --> 00:44:26,559
on the scan and it tells us where

1176
00:44:30,299 --> 00:44:29,049
prostate cancer has traveled to so for a

1177
00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:30,309
man for example let's say you know

1178
00:44:32,990 --> 00:44:31,200
you've got a

1179
00:44:35,930 --> 00:44:33,000
who was diagnosed with prostate cancer

1180
00:44:38,599 --> 00:44:35,940
ten years ago and if you had your

1181
00:44:40,339 --> 00:44:38,609
prostate removed then the best sign of

1182
00:44:42,170 --> 00:44:40,349
whether your prostate cancer has come

1183
00:44:45,650 --> 00:44:42,180
back is that your PSA is starting to

1184
00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:45,660
rise again so the what then happens is

1185
00:44:51,319 --> 00:44:47,310
we can now send you off to have this

1186
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:51,329
PSMA PET scan and it can very reliably

1187
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:53,130
show us where the prostate cancer has

1188
00:44:56,839 --> 00:44:54,510
returned and the reason we want to know

1189
00:44:59,000 --> 00:44:56,849
that is that for men who have never had

1190
00:45:00,230 --> 00:44:59,010
radiotherapy on it so there are number

1191
00:45:02,150 --> 00:45:00,240
of different treatment recommendations

1192
00:45:04,130 --> 00:45:02,160
for prostate cancer you can have your

1193
00:45:05,210 --> 00:45:04,140
prostate removed and have to be honest

1194
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:05,220
because I don't work on the surgical

1195
00:45:09,109 --> 00:45:07,170
side of things and I'm not an expert in

1196
00:45:10,910 --> 00:45:09,119
radiation radiation oncology either i'm

1197
00:45:13,310 --> 00:45:10,920
at a clinical trial coordinator so my

1198
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:13,320
knowledge is somewhat limited but you

1199
00:45:17,420 --> 00:45:14,730
can have your prostate removed you could

1200
00:45:19,130 --> 00:45:17,430
have radiotherapy those are the main

1201
00:45:21,410 --> 00:45:19,140
treatments as well as also hormone

1202
00:45:25,099 --> 00:45:21,420
therapy hormone therapy sometimes

1203
00:45:26,780 --> 00:45:25,109
recommended because the hormone in the

1204
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:26,790
body that actually encourages the growth

1205
00:45:31,220 --> 00:45:28,310
of prostate cancer is testosterone

1206
00:45:33,170 --> 00:45:31,230
alright so for men who have prostate

1207
00:45:35,300 --> 00:45:33,180
cancer it's often recommended that they

1208
00:45:36,740 --> 00:45:35,310
have course of hormone therapy or it can

1209
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:36,750
be a lengthy course of hormone therapy

1210
00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:38,490
and the side effects of hormone therapy

1211
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:40,140
are pretty unpleasant they can cause

1212
00:45:45,470 --> 00:45:42,720
depression but people can put on a lot

1213
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:45,480
of weight you know it really can have a

1214
00:45:48,770 --> 00:45:46,650
significant effect on people's quality

1215
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:48,780
of life so we want to try and avoid

1216
00:45:52,190 --> 00:45:50,310
those things where we can and we also

1217
00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:52,200
want to avoid giving radiation therapy

1218
00:45:56,599 --> 00:45:54,720
unnecessarily if we don't have to do so

1219
00:45:58,670 --> 00:45:56,609
if a man has had their prostate removed

1220
00:46:00,589 --> 00:45:58,680
and has never had radiation therapy for

1221
00:46:02,900 --> 00:46:00,599
example and they say their PSA goes up

1222
00:46:04,940 --> 00:46:02,910
we know that only thing the body that

1223
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:04,950
gives off PSA if your process being

1224
00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:06,810
removed must be prostate cancer cells so

1225
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:08,609
it's a good indication that the prostate

1226
00:46:13,269 --> 00:46:10,400
cancers come back

1227
00:46:14,799 --> 00:46:13,279
and we can look at different ways of

1228
00:46:16,329 --> 00:46:14,809
treating that but for example we may

1229
00:46:17,829 --> 00:46:16,339
want to avoid giving hormone therapy

1230
00:46:19,569 --> 00:46:17,839
unnecessarily or we may want to avoid

1231
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:19,579
giving radiation therapy to the prostate

1232
00:46:23,950 --> 00:46:21,529
bed because that has side effects it can

1233
00:46:26,319 --> 00:46:23,960
affect erectile function it can affect

1234
00:46:27,579 --> 00:46:26,329
bladder function of bowel function so

1235
00:46:30,220 --> 00:46:27,589
it's really important to be able to

1236
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:30,230
determine where the cancer is and this

1237
00:46:33,670 --> 00:46:32,210
new PSMA test can really help us

1238
00:46:35,740 --> 00:46:33,680
determine whether the cancer has come

1239
00:46:37,180 --> 00:46:35,750
back outside of where the prostate used

1240
00:46:39,460 --> 00:46:37,190
to be or whether it's come back where

1241
00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:39,470
the prostate used to be and there are

1242
00:46:42,970 --> 00:46:41,359
different ways of treating that and it's

1243
00:46:44,769 --> 00:46:42,980
one of the really important things for

1244
00:46:46,180 --> 00:46:44,779
men is being able to make the best

1245
00:46:48,220 --> 00:46:46,190
decision for themselves about their

1246
00:46:50,230 --> 00:46:48,230
treatment if they had prostate cancer

1247
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:50,240
and whether or not they may want to go

1248
00:46:53,799 --> 00:46:52,490
on to have a therapy which is going to

1249
00:46:56,170 --> 00:46:53,809
have side effects which are not going to

1250
00:46:57,700 --> 00:46:56,180
actually result in a treatment that is

1251
00:46:59,380 --> 00:46:57,710
going to be beneficial to them so you

1252
00:47:00,940 --> 00:46:59,390
don't want to have radiation therapy if

1253
00:47:03,970 --> 00:47:00,950
you don't actually have any cancer in

1254
00:47:07,180 --> 00:47:03,980
your cross a bed for example now with

1255
00:47:09,099 --> 00:47:07,190
issues like Alzheimer's some issues with

1256
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:09,109
the eyes and some issues with prostate

1257
00:47:12,220 --> 00:47:10,490
cancer are these things that are showing

1258
00:47:13,420 --> 00:47:12,230
up because we're living longer is that

1259
00:47:15,190 --> 00:47:13,430
part of the thing these are some of the

1260
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:15,200
things that will come on eventually just

1261
00:47:18,519 --> 00:47:16,730
to be living really long one of them are

1262
00:47:19,779 --> 00:47:18,529
diseases of aging I mean cancer

1263
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:19,789
Alzheimer's and those sort of things

1264
00:47:23,829 --> 00:47:21,410
we've got an aging population and they

1265
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:23,839
are diseases of aging so you know you

1266
00:47:27,849 --> 00:47:26,000
get a lot of people who promote a lot of

1267
00:47:30,010 --> 00:47:27,859
the alternative therapies and and so on

1268
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:30,020
who kind of jump up and down and tell

1269
00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:31,490
you know all the diseases we're

1270
00:47:34,329 --> 00:47:32,569
experiencing it's because of our

1271
00:47:35,740 --> 00:47:34,339
terrible diet and lifestyle and so on

1272
00:47:37,269 --> 00:47:35,750
and does some extent there is you know

1273
00:47:39,309 --> 00:47:37,279
some truth in there we are much more

1274
00:47:41,019 --> 00:47:39,319
sedentary than we used to be but overall

1275
00:47:42,309 --> 00:47:41,029
we have much better nutrition we're

1276
00:47:44,019 --> 00:47:42,319
living longer because of that you know

1277
00:47:45,210 --> 00:47:44,029
you look at the Paleo diet for example

1278
00:47:47,589 --> 00:47:45,220
you know if you look back at the

1279
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:47,599
Paleolithic man they did not exactly

1280
00:47:50,890 --> 00:47:49,250
have a very long life span nor did they

1281
00:47:52,269 --> 00:47:50,900
not suffer from disease it's just they

1282
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:52,279
didn't live long enough to suffer from

1283
00:47:56,079 --> 00:47:53,930
the diseases that we now see in humans

1284
00:47:57,670 --> 00:47:56,089
my goodness could they danced my

1285
00:47:59,589 --> 00:47:57,680
goodness could they ever I mean really

1286
00:48:02,640 --> 00:47:59,599
I'm a [\h__\h] is relative in 230 you're

1287
00:48:05,470 --> 00:48:02,650
gonna really cut around oh I think you

1288
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:05,480
not like about I have seen some people

1289
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:07,760
in their 90's who can really hit the

1290
00:48:10,870 --> 00:48:09,410
dance floor I just want to go back to

1291
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:10,880
one thing botas that I missed about the

1292
00:48:14,799 --> 00:48:13,010
PSA test which you actually asked me the

1293
00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:14,809
most important thing about PSA testing

1294
00:48:18,769 --> 00:48:16,910
and that's where the controversy lies is

1295
00:48:21,679 --> 00:48:18,779
that a lot of people are concerned that

1296
00:48:24,079 --> 00:48:21,689
PSA testing is done too much and that

1297
00:48:26,809 --> 00:48:24,089
men who so prostate cancer generally is

1298
00:48:28,429 --> 00:48:26,819
a fairly slow growing cancer my dad has

1299
00:48:31,009 --> 00:48:28,439
a hobby one of them is going to aldi the

1300
00:48:32,689 --> 00:48:31,019
other one is going to the doctor I think

1301
00:48:35,959 --> 00:48:32,699
a lot of elderly people who are like

1302
00:48:36,919 --> 00:48:35,969
that that is not unusual but you know

1303
00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:36,929
there are men who are in different

1304
00:48:40,009 --> 00:48:38,609
groups so that you can have a very

1305
00:48:42,799 --> 00:48:40,019
strong family history of prostate cancer

1306
00:48:45,349 --> 00:48:42,809
and some who don't and a lot of it is

1307
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:45,359
about identifying risk and ensuring that

1308
00:48:48,709 --> 00:48:46,890
you have a conversation with your doctor

1309
00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:48,719
about where you fit into that risk group

1310
00:48:53,509 --> 00:48:51,089
so it's worth testing your PSA at the

1311
00:48:55,219 --> 00:48:53,519
age of 85 when you have no risk factors

1312
00:48:56,479 --> 00:48:55,229
and then going on to have treatments

1313
00:48:58,549 --> 00:48:56,489
that are going to you know cause you

1314
00:49:00,409 --> 00:48:58,559
problems where you might be diagnosed

1315
00:49:01,999 --> 00:49:00,419
with prostate cancer that will you know

1316
00:49:03,829 --> 00:49:02,009
you'll die long before it would ever

1317
00:49:05,029 --> 00:49:03,839
have caused you any problems so that's

1318
00:49:07,519 --> 00:49:05,039
where the conversation and the

1319
00:49:10,189 --> 00:49:07,529
controversy years around screening using

1320
00:49:11,329 --> 00:49:10,199
PSA testing so what I'd should you give

1321
00:49:13,339 --> 00:49:11,339
me I mean would someone in their 20s

1322
00:49:16,039 --> 00:49:13,349
bother getting a PSA testing in our

1323
00:49:17,689 --> 00:49:16,049
chinese is very very early I mean look

1324
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:17,699
you know that I'm actually to be honest

1325
00:49:22,009 --> 00:49:19,890
I actually cannot remember at what age

1326
00:49:24,289 --> 00:49:22,019
they do recommend starting it that is it

1327
00:49:26,779 --> 00:49:24,299
like 50 with the bell look I mean the

1328
00:49:30,049 --> 00:49:26,789
thing is it would be 50 60 s probably

1329
00:49:31,699 --> 00:49:30,059
for fees would be about the age and in

1330
00:49:33,289 --> 00:49:31,709
fact most of the the patients I see

1331
00:49:35,390 --> 00:49:33,299
coming through an hour on the clinical

1332
00:49:38,299 --> 00:49:35,400
trials I'm involved in you know anywhere

1333
00:49:40,399 --> 00:49:38,309
between 50 s up to 80 s it's pretty

1334
00:49:43,279 --> 00:49:40,409
unusual I very unusual to see anyone

1335
00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:43,289
over the age of 50 but it does happen so

1336
00:49:47,390 --> 00:49:45,569
you know really it's all about risk

1337
00:49:50,179 --> 00:49:47,400
assessment and and having a conversation

1338
00:49:51,799 --> 00:49:50,189
with your doctor and you know just just

1339
00:49:53,029 --> 00:49:51,809
being well informed and Joe what's it

1340
00:49:54,109 --> 00:49:53,039
like to hang with the skeptics here in

1341
00:49:56,509 --> 00:49:54,119
Brisbane this time around you're a

1342
00:49:57,979 --> 00:49:56,519
veteran of many conference you've

1343
00:49:59,539 --> 00:49:57,989
embarrassed yourself you've been thrown

1344
00:50:01,309 --> 00:49:59,549
and Ben bet you're not allowed back get

1345
00:50:03,799 --> 00:50:01,319
it back in purple Adelaide you know that

1346
00:50:06,349 --> 00:50:03,809
never oh look I have to say it's been so

1347
00:50:08,839 --> 00:50:06,359
lovely seeing the baton handed on to the

1348
00:50:11,419 --> 00:50:08,849
Brisbane skeptics this year I could

1349
00:50:13,549 --> 00:50:11,429
drink like a drink that yeah I have seen

1350
00:50:15,859 --> 00:50:13,559
I was at the world coming last night so

1351
00:50:18,060 --> 00:50:15,869
yes and they've really done a fabulous

1352
00:50:19,860 --> 00:50:18,070
job really great speakers and

1353
00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:19,870
venue and it's so lovely being up in

1354
00:50:24,510 --> 00:50:22,630
sunny Brisbane so no it's look it's

1355
00:50:26,790 --> 00:50:24,520
always wonderful hanging out with with a

1356
00:50:28,830 --> 00:50:26,800
bunch of people who sort of like minded

1357
00:50:30,870 --> 00:50:28,840
so any any of the skeptics inventive is

1358
00:50:33,150 --> 00:50:30,880
fantastic and just reminding people that

1359
00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:33,160
just go shoot as a career as a nurse you

1360
00:50:36,180 --> 00:50:34,510
can get into all sorts of things you

1361
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:36,190
don't end up having to work and all you

1362
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:37,810
don't have to end up working an award or

1363
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:38,890
there's nothing wrong with that you can

1364
00:50:41,970 --> 00:50:40,810
do lots of different things see nothing

1365
00:50:43,620 --> 00:50:41,980
wrong with working in award and in fact

1366
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:43,630
some of my most satisfying experiences

1367
00:50:48,420 --> 00:50:45,970
as a nurse we're working on the wards I

1368
00:50:49,770 --> 00:50:48,430
absolutely loved it but I moved on to

1369
00:50:51,330 --> 00:50:49,780
other things the reason I would imagine

1370
00:50:52,860 --> 00:50:51,340
it would be grueling it's not because of

1371
00:50:54,660 --> 00:50:52,870
the physical thing it was a bad job but

1372
00:50:56,190 --> 00:50:54,670
because you're seeing a lot of sadness

1373
00:50:58,230 --> 00:50:56,200
with people and that would be wearing on

1374
00:51:00,240 --> 00:50:58,240
a person emotionally look at a lot of it

1375
00:51:02,430 --> 00:51:00,250
is unfortunately because you know

1376
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:02,440
nursing as in a lot of healthcare is

1377
00:51:07,620 --> 00:51:05,110
very very under-resourced you know we

1378
00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:07,630
don't have nurses I you know I wouldn't

1379
00:51:11,700 --> 00:51:09,910
say that our pay is is grotesque but I

1380
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:11,710
certainly don't think nursing pays what

1381
00:51:15,330 --> 00:51:13,450
it should be and there's huge

1382
00:51:17,070 --> 00:51:15,340
disparities between for example you look

1383
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:17,080
at aged care nurses who work in aged

1384
00:51:21,810 --> 00:51:19,090
care homes to do an amazing job looking

1385
00:51:23,730 --> 00:51:21,820
looking after our vulnerable elderly and

1386
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:23,740
that's my manual to that job very manual

1387
00:51:27,330 --> 00:51:25,810
very exhausting work and they are they

1388
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:27,340
are paid a lot less than nurses who work

1389
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:30,400
in hospitals but you know that this is

1390
00:51:35,610 --> 00:51:31,690
the thing about nursing is that it is

1391
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:35,620
such a vast career and a profession

1392
00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:36,850
which opens up so many opportunities

1393
00:51:41,220 --> 00:51:39,310
from you know working in a nursing home

1394
00:51:42,630 --> 00:51:41,230
to working on a war to you know doing

1395
00:51:44,370 --> 00:51:42,640
things like what I've done working in an

1396
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:44,380
endoscopy and then going on to work and

1397
00:51:48,390 --> 00:51:46,690
research you know working in academia

1398
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:48,400
and in fact what's really interesting

1399
00:51:51,420 --> 00:51:49,930
about nursing is if you actually look at

1400
00:51:56,010 --> 00:51:51,430
some of the work that's been done in

1401
00:51:58,260 --> 00:51:56,020
research some of the the great intensive

1402
00:52:00,600 --> 00:51:58,270
care work a lot of that's been done by

1403
00:52:03,210 --> 00:52:00,610
nurses there's been some really a lot of

1404
00:52:04,380 --> 00:52:03,220
innovation a lot of interesting ideas I

1405
00:52:06,930 --> 00:52:04,390
mean look you know I've had I've had

1406
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:06,940
some criticism of my own profession in

1407
00:52:09,780 --> 00:52:08,290
the past I won't say that you know

1408
00:52:12,030 --> 00:52:09,790
everything is absolutely fabulous I you

1409
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:12,040
know I'm known to speak up about the

1410
00:52:16,890 --> 00:52:15,010
fact that there is I will there is a lot

1411
00:52:19,290 --> 00:52:16,900
of woo and some elements of Nursing and

1412
00:52:21,030 --> 00:52:19,300
Midwifery as well you know that it's

1413
00:52:24,300 --> 00:52:21,040
disappointing when you see nurses who

1414
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:24,310
who have NT wax use or who believe in

1415
00:52:28,110 --> 00:52:26,530
things like therapeutic touch where

1416
00:52:29,870 --> 00:52:28,120
no the nursing profession is a

1417
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:29,880
science-based profession and

1418
00:52:33,210 --> 00:52:31,810
unfortunately I think some of them some

1419
00:52:35,850 --> 00:52:33,220
of the critical thinking skills that

1420
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:35,860
should inform what we do don't seem to

1421
00:52:40,980 --> 00:52:38,530
always translate into practice okay but

1422
00:52:43,980 --> 00:52:40,990
there are you know the nursing

1423
00:52:46,050 --> 00:52:43,990
profession is massive in any country and

1424
00:52:50,010 --> 00:52:46,060
there's a huge workforce out there with

1425
00:52:52,230 --> 00:52:50,020
very vast reliefs and and backgrounds so

1426
00:52:54,150 --> 00:52:52,240
it's not entirely surprising something

1427
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:54,160
and it's a very nimble nimble profession

1428
00:52:59,340 --> 00:52:56,890
to tell me can you on your own flip a

1429
00:53:00,930 --> 00:52:59,350
king-size mattress oh well no log I

1430
00:53:02,430 --> 00:53:00,940
can't flip a king-size mattress however

1431
00:53:04,050 --> 00:53:02,440
I know really handy because that's a car

1432
00:53:05,970 --> 00:53:04,060
thing you have to do as a nurse yeah but

1433
00:53:09,150 --> 00:53:05,980
I can make a bed with someone in it

1434
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:09,160
which my husband will attest to yes yes

1435
00:53:13,770 --> 00:53:12,370
yes and and what's more is I have taught

1436
00:53:15,630 --> 00:53:13,780
my husband to do Hospital corners

1437
00:53:17,340 --> 00:53:15,640
because I'm sorry if you're going to

1438
00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:17,350
live in my home the bed will have

1439
00:53:21,300 --> 00:53:19,510
Hospital corners not now define that

1440
00:53:22,950 --> 00:53:21,310
again that's the same as I do them in

1441
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:22,960
hotels isn't it that is the same which

1442
00:53:29,580 --> 00:53:25,450
is walls which well look it's very hard

1443
00:53:31,410 --> 00:53:29,590
to acquire a and a video you rather than

1444
00:53:33,150 --> 00:53:31,420
rather than sound but it's just a very

1445
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:33,160
welcome to a guy here who just puts the

1446
00:53:37,050 --> 00:53:35,050
fitted sheet on and and and it goes on

1447
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:37,060
top well no real Hospital corners

1448
00:53:40,710 --> 00:53:39,010
involves in fact you know who would be

1449
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,720
really good at them Richard Richard

1450
00:53:44,940 --> 00:53:42,640
Saunders which is such a anal agenda on

1451
00:53:47,580 --> 00:53:44,950
is it would be really got at them

1452
00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:47,590
because of his origami skills I reckon

1453
00:53:52,020 --> 00:53:50,110
Richard could do fantastic or I get

1454
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:52,030
Richard Saunders origami skills he could

1455
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:54,370
yes he could think they can make a mean

1456
00:53:57,090 --> 00:53:56,050
bed thank you for talking to us and by

1457
00:53:59,880 --> 00:53:57,100
the way for the visual people she's

1458
00:54:02,220 --> 00:53:59,890
wearing a Betty Page t-shirt and yes I

1459
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:02,230
am thank you very much thanks Joe and

1460
00:54:16,099 --> 00:54:03,370
we'll have to have you back on his own

1461
00:54:20,670 --> 00:54:18,690
how much truth is there to claims of

1462
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:20,680
risk caused by the treatment of beef

1463
00:54:24,870 --> 00:54:23,050
cattle with antibiotics I'm Tamra

1464
00:54:30,809 --> 00:54:24,880
Robertson and you're hooked up to the

1465
00:54:32,970 --> 00:54:30,819
feeding to the feeding tube is the web

1466
00:54:36,089 --> 00:54:32,980
video series that brings you the real

1467
00:54:38,550 --> 00:54:36,099
facts behind popular food myths food

1468
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:38,560
whoo is the most pervasive pop

1469
00:54:43,410 --> 00:54:40,930
pseudoscience out there right now and it

1470
00:54:45,390 --> 00:54:43,420
desperately needs debunking each three

1471
00:54:48,180 --> 00:54:45,400
minute episode is suitable for general

1472
00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:48,190
audience and is produced by scientists

1473
00:55:08,569 --> 00:54:51,310
for everyone the feeding tube check it

1474
00:55:12,299 --> 00:55:10,890
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1475
00:55:13,979 --> 00:55:12,309
zone and if you ever invite Jolla

1476
00:55:15,839 --> 00:55:13,989
bastard to your place for a party make

1477
00:55:21,210 --> 00:55:15,849
sure she brings some peanut butter slice

1478
00:55:22,849 --> 00:55:21,220
oh I'm still recovering in a nice way of

1479
00:55:25,259 --> 00:55:22,859
course in a very nice way of course

1480
00:55:27,930 --> 00:55:25,269
coming up on next week's show another

1481
00:55:30,059 --> 00:55:27,940
Maynard interview maynard's going to be

1482
00:55:31,529 --> 00:55:30,069
speaking to dr. Mel Thompson who gave a

1483
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:31,539
wonderful talk at the Australian

1484
00:55:36,930 --> 00:55:34,690
skeptics convention a passionate

1485
00:55:39,809 --> 00:55:36,940
supporter of science and reason and the

1486
00:55:42,089 --> 00:55:39,819
health fears I think you'll want to tune

1487
00:55:43,769 --> 00:55:42,099
in do you tune in to a podcast or do you

1488
00:55:46,229 --> 00:55:43,779
just download it I think you'll want to

1489
00:55:48,420 --> 00:55:46,239
download it and tune in for next week's

1490
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,430
episode with them a not speaking to dr.

1491
00:55:51,690 --> 00:55:50,319
Mel Thompson thank you to those people

1492
00:55:54,779 --> 00:55:51,700
who have been supporting the skeptic

1493
00:55:58,380 --> 00:55:54,789
zone by buying some mr. Katz origami

1494
00:55:59,819 --> 00:55:58,390
jewelry ww skeptics on TV there's a link

1495
00:56:01,859 --> 00:55:59,829
there if you scroll down a little bit

1496
00:56:06,539 --> 00:56:01,869
and thank you to those people who send

1497
00:56:20,359 --> 00:56:06,549
letters to Fred the cat Fred the cat let

1498
00:56:26,849 --> 00:56:23,609
there is he's just walking beside me so

1499
00:56:30,809 --> 00:56:26,859
no he's gone round bed Fred you want to

1500
00:56:33,839 --> 00:56:30,819
say hello to the skeptics own fans yes

1501
00:56:37,849 --> 00:56:33,849
he is a cat um I think he's going to

1502
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:41,089
he's sitting on the floor under a chair

1503
00:56:47,459 --> 00:56:44,130
looking at me as if I've lost my marbles

1504
00:56:48,989 --> 00:56:47,469
he might be right oh well for this week

1505
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:48,999
this is Richard Saunders and Fred the

1506
00:57:00,940 --> 00:56:57,640
you've been listening to the skeptics

1507
00:57:04,330 --> 00:57:00,950
own podcast visit our website at wwc

1508
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:04,340
aiptek zoomtv for contacts and archive

1509
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:07,760
of all episodes since 2008 and our

1510
00:57:12,390 --> 00:57:10,490
online store please support the skeptic

1511
00:57:15,550 --> 00:57:12,400
zone by following us on twitter at

1512
00:57:19,180 --> 00:57:15,560
skeptic zone liking us on facebook and

1513
00:57:21,340 --> 00:57:19,190
leaving a review on iTunes you can also

1514
00:57:24,540 --> 00:57:21,350
show your support by subscribing via

1515
00:57:27,310 --> 00:57:24,550
paypal for as little as 99 cents a week

1516
00:57:28,930 --> 00:57:27,320
the skeptic zone is an independent

1517
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:28,940
productions the views and opinions

1518
00:57:33,580 --> 00:57:31,370
expressed on the skeptic zone and not